Trini and True | Growing Up With a Trinidadian Parent feat. Christine

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Hello and welcome to Culture In-Between, the podcast that shares unique experiences of people who

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grew up in a culture outside of their parents' culture.  We are your hosts, Alyssa and Brianna,

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and in today's episode, we are joined by Christine,  who has Trinidadian roots. Christine, thank

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you so much for joining us on the show.  Thank you all so much for having me. I'm really excited

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to chat with you all because, like, I never get asked anything about being Trinidadian

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or anything like this. So this is really fun for me. Yes, we're so excited to have you.

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just to give a brief introduction to Christine,  Christine Job is the host of the award winning

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podcast, Flourish in the Foreign, in which she talks to black women expats about their lives

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abroad and their wellness journeys. Christine is also a business strategist, a black woman

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wellness advocate and an expat lifestyle contributor. I have been a fan of Christine's podcast almost

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since it came out in 2020.  And  she talks a lot about moving abroad with intention and

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not romanticizing the idea of living abroad, which is something that I do too often.  So

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I really enjoy getting her reality check and  hearing  just the experiences of her guests.

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It's just so wonderful. And we're just so glad to have you here, Christine. So do you want

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to add anything to that introduction, share a little bit more about yourself before we

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start? I mean, I think you did an absolutely wonderful job. So thank you so much.  just,

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I,  as you said, you know, I am  against romanticizing living abroad, which doesn't mean  not to romanticize

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your life. It's more about, you know, escapism and things like that. But  I do firmly believe

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that living abroad can be a pathway to wellness. And the book that I'm working on really explores

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the question of  whether or not living abroad can be a liberation practice for Black women,

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and if so, how so? So,  you know, we're still thinking about the softness and the  freedoms

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and, you know,  the niceness of living abroad. I just want everyone to be realistic, you know?

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It's not a bomb. It's not a bomb, for sure. Yeah, and I think that's particularly important.

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in this day and age when I think a lot of people are  thinking of moving abroad for certain

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reasons we won't get into.  And so yes, it's very important to kind of  think about  your

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reasons and having proper reasons and not just trying to get away from certain things that

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might be going on in the government or things like that. You have to have your own real rooted

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reasons for moving abroad. So yeah, I don't know.  thought about  a to do it eventually.

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know he really wants to do that. Yes, I do. But I want to do it right. So that's why  listening

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to Christine's podcast is a really good practice in  thinking about  why you might want to do

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that.  So we're so happy to have Christine here.  And like you said, Christine,  I've been a

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listener of your podcast for a long time.  You always mention having Trinidadian roots in

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your introduction, but then we never really get to hear you talk about it. So I'm so excited

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to talk to you about this now.  So can you tell me  where I think it's your it's just your

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dad who's from Trinidad or both your parents? Yeah. So my dad is Trinidadian.  So my entire,

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yeah, my paternal line  is from Trinidad and Tobago.  And it's It's interesting, right?

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Because I don't really talk about it on the show because, you know, it's mostly about the

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guests. But like my connection to Trinidad is mostly through my grandparents rather than

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my father. Me and my father, have a, you know, I'll call it a strange light kind of relationship.

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And so, you know, my connection to the culture is definitely through my grandparents. My father

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was born in Trinidad and he  was in Trinidad until  he moved to New York with my grandparents

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when he was maybe six or 10 years old. so  that's kind of like the start of the migration story,

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at least on that side. And I think it's really fascinating because it feels very full circle

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for me in a lot of ways, because it was my grandmother who initially moved to the United States without

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my grandfather and without my dad to have a better life and to pursue the American dream.

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And now, however many years later, 40, no, 45, how old is everyone? don't know how many years.

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I don't know how old anyone is. I left the United States to go abroad and to pursue some other

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type of wellness. And I think it's It's really interesting, right? Because I talked about

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on the show, to willingly uproot yourself in your cultural context takes a lot. You give

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up a certain amount of wellness, right? Where you belong, your identity, where you make sense

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to go abroad for some other aspect of wellness. But in that type of migratory journey, a lot

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gets lost. And so I feel like as I've grown up, I've always been proud to say I'm Trinidadian.

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I've always known I'm Trinidadian, but my context of being Trinidadian  is very much rooted in

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my grandparents and my grandparents who are lovely people  are  particular. They're peculiar.

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They moved to New York and they moved to  Podunk, Texas,  outside of Houston.  It's an interesting

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migratory story.  Yeah, it's been  interesting as I've gotten older to  reclaim that identity,

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to explore what it even means to  get connected with cousins and to really, I don't know, understand

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parts of me that I'm like, oh,  that's not just me being quirky. That's because I'm Trinidadian,

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you know? It's interesting things that I'm still kind of uncovering and learning. I find it

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interesting that, okay, so you said that your grandmother...  came  to the States first

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without your grandfather.  Wow. OK, that's  so did she kind of pave the way? Because this

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is a common theme we hear a lot is that, you know, usually some relative sister, cousin,

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aunt, whatever, like has come over first. And then that's usually where, you know, your parents

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go and reside.  And so, yeah, I'm curious about that story. What how did she do that and how

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long was she kind of here before bringing like your father over and stuff? Well, it's. It's

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dramatic and I don't want to tell everybody's business. But I'll tell you around what  things

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could happen. My great grandmother was like, you should go to New York.  There's a bunch

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of Caribbean and Trinidadian people in New York. You should have this opportunity. My grandmother

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went to New York  and had a really great job. She was a secretary or a typist, like in a

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typing pool, I guess, in the 70s, they were still doing that. And she was living her New

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York life, having a great time. And then my grandfather decided, oh, I should go up with

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you. And then they kind of had that eventual kind of migration. It's very strange because

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I don't know why, really, why my grandparents left New York to go to Texas. Like all of our

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family is in New York or in Toronto. or in the UK, as is the Caribbean way.  I think that's

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part of my deep family lore that I'm still not privy to. And I'm like, I am  well within my

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30s. I deserve to know.  Who knows if I'll ever be told the story.  In fact, I asked my

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grandmother recently  if she would be on the show for the podcast. it's about Black women

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living abroad. And she was like... I don't know. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was

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like, for like the public. I was like, yeah, grandma, no one that I really know, like my

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mom has listened to my pocket. Like no one that I know listens to his pocket. So yes, she's

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like, I don't know about that. I was like, okay. So yeah. That's cool. I mean, I would love

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that episode. We've thought about having our mom on the podcast, that's a little more like,

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OK, the interesting  thing. When you said like, oh, you know,  you're like, you know, you're

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Trinidadian, but you're also like it's like a particular Trinidadian because it's like

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your grandparents. Like that's the same way at least I feel about our parents, too, is

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like we're Jamaican and like our parents are pretty stereotypical Jamaican in a lot of ways.

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But they're also like their own particular, like they're from a certain generation. Like

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our parents are a little bit older. Like they're from a certain generation. Like there's certain

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things that I thought like all Jamaicans were like, and I realized like, oh, this is mostly

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just like my parents and like the generation they grew up in and like the, just the environment

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they grew up in specifically. it's like, I don't know. Yeah. Our mom is, our mom is, um, she

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has, she, she, she has a, she, would say a lot of things, I'm sure.  That would be entertaining.

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Yeah, I don't know. We're still working on that. I think you guys should do it, even if you

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don't put it on the podcast, because I'm trying to convince my grandmother just to record.

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I think it's important, I think especially for Caribbean women of a certain age, for their

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stories to be captured as well, like their points of views. I don't know if we'd actually be

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able to get their true sense  on certain things. You know what I mean? Like I don't, I'm not

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sure if they will ever reveal, you know, lay their soul bare. I think there's still some

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like, you know, like hierarchy and like, know, privacy that's very Caribbean. I'm like, it

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would be amazing just to get whatever they'd like to share. And if, if I can't ever release

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it to the public. I won't, but I would love to because I think in a lot of ways her story

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is my story. I am who I am because directly of her, because of her. You know what I mean?

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Like it's very important to capture. And I think also Caribbean women of a certain age, maybe

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it's all black women of a certain age, they just get on with it. Right. So they don't even,

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they're not used to being like, applauded or praised. They were like, what are you talking

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about? We just did what we need to do and you need to do what you need to do and go sweep

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that. So I think it would be really amazing and perhaps a really affirmative experience

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for them as well. But who knows? Yeah, that's a good point. We found too that there are certain

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things like even now that we're in our 30s and stuff, it's like, I can't, I still don't know

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the full story behind like I've heard little Like you mentioned that, like, you don't really

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know the full story about why she moved Texas and the kind of certain things. like there's

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certain parts in our family, too. It's like, I don't know why. Or like you have to pry information

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out sometimes to get just a little bit of like family history, even family, like health history.

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Yeah, there was something I could have known on my side. I was like, if you had told me

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that, that would have been helpful. But I understand. Like it's private and all that. But sometimes

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it's like helplessness to out like for real. but  yeah, there is a little bit of this kind

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of. saving face a little better to kind of just like, I don't know how to describe it. Like

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you said, just like getting on with it. Like there's so many things that my mom will like

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mention something that happened when she was younger with her. And I was like, oh, that

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must have been really hard for you. She's like, oh, I just moved on. Like, you know what I

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mean? Like she was just she just like brushes it off so easily. And it's it's admirable.

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But it's also like, man, like I wish you had time to actually like sit and reflect in that

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and talk about that a little bit, because. I think it could be helpful to other people,

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like you said. so, yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting having this conversation too, because,

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you know, I don't want to generalize Caribbean's, but it seems like there's a lot of commonalities

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between Jamaican culture and the Trinidadian culture. And what was I going to say? I was

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going to ask about, flip my mind. Well, I'll mention that. I think, you know, think it's

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probably also where the tension lies between our immigrant parents and grandparents and

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especially like first gen in the US of like empathy. Because we want to extend empathy

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to them, but they're like, we don't need that. And you're like, well, can you send it to me?

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And they're like, you don't need that either. And you're like, feelings are hurt. they're

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like, why are you feeling sorry? And I'm like, I are. Why are you depressed? Because I am.

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I feel feelings. Stop feeling. Yeah. OK, thank you. That is the track I was trying to go down.

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I I was curious because this is a  common gripe I've had with some of my upbringing is that

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like just the complete ignoring of feelings. Or my mom was always just be happy, lively

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up yourself, like just whatever.  And then us constantly getting reminded that we were born

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here and that they have had a heart of life. So did you experience any of that? like there

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is no like, I'm not saying there's lack of compassion. They're not nurturing people, at least not.

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My parents. you know, it's, yeah. I think it was difficult because my parents were married

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when they were quite young. They were high school sweethearts. They got married. They had a child

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and they both like went into the like U.S. Air Force before they were 20, which I'm now. I'm

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like, I'm 38. I'm like. I would be like a teenage bride and a teenage mom. I mean,  to this day,

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I'm like, oh, wish whenever I become responsible enough, I'll get a pet.  I bring that up because

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I think it was my parents divorced when they were quite young too. I was raised primarily

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with my mom. My mom is black American from  New York and I was raised in Atlanta.   Like

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I got to have some of the Trinidadian culture through my grandparents  and then I was mostly

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raised with her. So  I forgot the question. I'm sorry. Can you  repeat it? No, I think

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I was just asking if like you experienced any of that lack of emotional nurturing and stuff

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from  the Trinidadian side or just something we noticed with Caribbean. I think it's because

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life is hard  in those countries. so sometimes extending that feeling of like, oh, it's OK,

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sweetie, like that. That's not a thing we had. know, it's a. And I'm just curious if you think,

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yeah, I feel like  Caribbean to make this is all immigrants like their. Love language is

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acts of service. Yes, yes,  that's very true. Very true. We we we feed you.  Yes, you know,

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have a roof over your head. Yeah, you have a roof over your head.  Yeah. Come and sit down

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and have like.  I made you a tea and some banana bread and we'll do that, you know?  But,  you

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know, my grandparents, I think they've chilled out as they've gotten older, but they were

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strict. You know what I mean? Like, go in the backyard and cut down your own switch,  and

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have it on top of the,  have your switch on top of the refrigerator.  So, like, they didn't.

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They didn't play. And then also my grandparents are very religious.  I believe they're what

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would be called like Kojic. So that's like a very  specific type of religiosity  that didn't

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allow for a lot of sway. There wasn't a lot of movement to do and to be. So  I don't know.

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I don't know if was because they're religious or because they're Trinidadian. It probably

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is both where you're just like,  It's gonna be this way, and that's how it is. know, whenever

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I would stay with them,  you know, my grandfather's also a pastor. I didn't mention that. So was

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like always at the church all the time. And also was like  no nonsense  ever.  know, so

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it was...  It was particular. Like you guys said, like sometimes you're like, I don't know

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if it's really the culture or if it's just my family. Yeah, for sure.  You had an episode

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really recently on your podcast where you talked about kind of honoring your ancestors and

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just how to do that, especially in the context of living abroad, but just in general as well.

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And I was wondering how that's presented in your own  life.  what are some ways that you've

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kind of been honoring like your Trinidadian  ancestors in your everyday life now? Yeah.

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So I have an altar and I have it, um, the Trinidadian flag. Cause you know, as Caribbean, you have

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to have at least a flag everywhere. don't care. I don't care in my purse. Cause I'm like, there's

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no reason why I to like, you know, show my I one in my office. So I'm, I, I'm with you there.

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Where you might be like, wait, do I need to you my flag?  There's nothing like that that,

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you know, happens.  Um, so I have  my, my altar and,  um, Also, my family,  on my dad's, my

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grandfather's side,  who they're from  Tobago,  they have a book about the family.  Everyone

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can get it on  Amazon. It's  really  cool.  And it's like,  I think it's called like the

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Job legacy.  so going through the legacy of my grandfather, at least, has been really interesting

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to know. And to be able to name our ancestors has been really interesting. I didn't know

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how much that would affect me. Like to be able to go down the entire family line until basically,

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like, our family got to Trinidad, which they came from St. Vincent. and then after that,

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I'm not sure. I'm sure one, there's, I mean, we have so many cousins too. So I'm sure someone

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can figure out and knows like, actually from St. Vincent it was this, this, and this.  So

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for me it's been,  you know, having an altar, having the flag. It's also about being  connected

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to the island and knowing more about the history and  what's going on now. But honoring the

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ancestors is really about, sometimes it's like sitting and meditation and realizing how  insane

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it is that I exist and I exist in this life that I have walking down the street of Valencia,

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Spain, like, you know,  listening to Soka music or going to the gym and listening to Soka music.

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Like, this is very crazy for,  you know,  one generation, let alone two, to be so  far removed.

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And so  that's how I kind of,  I think Ancestor  veneration is really important. And I don't

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think ancestor veneration is in conflict with any religion in  my worldview.  But I think

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it's really important  for all people, but I would say especially Black people  across the

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diaspora  to have that type of reflection. Because when we think about, regardless of where you're

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from in the diaspora, what it took for us  to be here,  like I don't want to say more so

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than anybody else, but we had a lot of stuff stacked against us for us to even survive,

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let alone thrive,  let alone be bebopping down the street and being like, oh, think I'm going

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to go to Barcelona next week.  We have a lot to reflect upon and to give thanks  and to

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pour libation for and to ask for assistance because, I mean, that's the only way I can

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think of how I would end up here.  in this life to be able to do the things that I do. So I

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think it's really important and I think it is something that is centering and grounding.

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And I think honestly, to kind of go back to what we were talking about earlier, I think

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that is a type of romanticization that I think should be utilized or, instead of being like,

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oh, Emily in Paris, like the romanticization of like... I really am my ancestors' wildest

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dreams, because they're like, what the heck are you doing in Spain, girl? And I'm like,

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I'm just chilling right now. I don't know. I don't know if I'm going be here forever, but

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I don't know. That is the type of romanticization when we think about just two generations, let

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alone three, where our people were and what they were doing. That is the thing I think

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we should be participating in. is a great reflection. I've never really thought of it from that perspective.

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That's so cool. I love having these conversations. Yeah, there are moments when I do have those...

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Because I'm really into Ancestry and I watched Finding Your Roots, which is a show about digging

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really wish you could do that. I so wish I could do that. And we also... There was this show

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that came on PBS here in the US and it was called The Long Song and it was about... It's fictional,

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but it was set right at the edge of when... slavery was  abolished in Jamaica.  And it

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depicted this woman who was a slave and on her life over this course of like decades in Jamaica

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as a slave. And  we actually had to stop watching it because  it came out in 2020. There's a

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lot going on. then this was like this was like, you I don't know. It was  yeah, it was heavy.

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It was a good show, but it felt like I. I've never watched, I've watched other things about

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like the civil rights movement or  slavery in the US, but like seeing that and specifically

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it being in Jamaica, just like, was like, this could be, this was one of my ancestors. You

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know I mean? Like this is, this is what my ancestors had to go through. And that show did not stray

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away from really depicting  the hardships and the abuse and violence and  all kinds of things

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that they went through. And it was hard to watch because I, it felt so close to home. Like I

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felt, this is like my, I felt like it was my actual, like watching my actual family. go

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through that. And I've never had that experience before.  Yeah. So when you were talking, saying

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that stuff about honoring your ancestors, that popped into my head too, that show.  And yeah,

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I think sometimes you, I can sometimes be like, I don't know why my mom acts like this and

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why can't she be, but like sometimes, like I think you said,  it gives you more compassion

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and realizing like, oh wow, like what they came from was actually, yeah, really difficult.

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So that's, that's a good, I appreciate that insight. Thank you.  Yeah. And like you said,

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I think we all, carry that with us, like, you know,  it's in us whether we like, are conscious

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of it or not. Like, you know, because my mom had said, has said things sometimes where she's

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like, yeah, I don't know why like we're this way, like talking about like Jamaica people.

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And I'm like, it's because you guys went through a lot. Like your ancestors went through a lot

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and your guys are still going through a lot. And like, that's, that's why you guys are as

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tough as you are and like kind of  look at life the way that you do. And I think, I just think

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that's, that's really interesting and something that, like you said, like we don't talk about

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that enough. So. Yeah, thank you for that, Christine. That was really great. Have you ever visited

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Trinidad? Yes, I was gonna ask that.  I have. I have, and I didn't even go with my family.

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Really? Okay. Which  was... It was a very spontaneous trip.  Which is interesting, right? Like, I...

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I started to international...  Yeah, I started my international travel when I was 10.  And

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it wasn't to anywhere where there was black people. Like, my dad got stationed in Germany.

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And so I went to go visit him  every summer for,  guess until I was maybe 14,  perhaps

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13.  And so that was my first kind of bit of international travel. And I would do other

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things like family vacation.  I actually went to like the Bahamas before I went to Trinidad.

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wasn't until I was in law school because my family...  My family didn't go back to Trinidad

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like that.  They would go up to New York and I think they would go up to Toronto, but they

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wouldn't go back to Trinidad. And so I was living in Miami, going to law school. It was spring

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break and my roommate at the time  was also Trinidadian  and her mother lived on the island.

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She was like, why don't we just go to Trinidad? And I was like,  for spring break? And she

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was like, yeah, the tickets are this much. And then we went to Trinidad like two days later.

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And I,  what's up to my grandfather? I was like,  yeah, I'm going to Trinidad. He's like, why

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didn't you tell me? like, because I  literally just decided.  And that trip,  oh gosh, I don't

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know if we have enough time. That was very interesting because there's so much there, you know?  Like

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Trinidad, like Jamaica is  a Caribbean island for the listeners that don't know. that is

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very multi-ethnic. And a lot of people just think Caribbean are black people, which I mean,

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okay, but it's not, it's really multi-ethnic.  because it's multi-ethnic, there are,  I think,

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systemic  racial issues about  who the 1 % are, things like that. There's colorism,  there's

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a lot of stuff, you know?  But yeah, that trip was...  It was amazing.  I did things I would

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never have done.  I had experiences and I was just like, okay, sure. It was really, really

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amazing. And then I gained like 10 pounds, 100%. I gained lots of weight because I ate  so good.

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It was amazing. How long were you there for? kind of curious. I think we were there for

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10 days. Okay, so a good amount of time. Yeah,  because I  think we were like... We don't

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have to come back to class immediately. I'm like, yeah, no.  So we skip some days and we're

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we're not coming to class.  That's good, though, because sometimes when it's so short, can't

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really get to experience it. So that's a good amount of time. you like  in...  Do you go

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as a of like a tourist or were you kind of like in the city amongst the people? Because it's

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very different experiences, depending on where...  We did not go as a tourist because as soon

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as we landed,  her... her mom's boyfriend picked us up.  We were immediately on the side of

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the road getting food and getting doubles.  My family found me. They were like, where are

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you at? We're coming to get you. And I was like, I've never met these people ever in my life.

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And my grandfather was like,  Ann, get in the car. And I was like, okay, getting in cars,

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going to see aunties that I had never met.  How about this, meeting people? who my grandparents

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call them one name and then someone introduced me to and I'm like, who is this? And my grandpa

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was like, oh, you saw, know, Judy, whatever. And I'd be like, what? That's what her name

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is? What you talking about? I don't know. know, seeing family member that just would give me

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money. And I was like, I don't need this money. They're like, here's some money. It was, I

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had the local experience. I just was getting back up cars. I get on bus. I went and got

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my eyebrows bladed in  somewhere.  I was like, we were in the thicks, thick I was in the hood,

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I was over on the beach, I was everywhere. And I was just like,  I  assumed I'd be all right.

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Yeah, exactly. because  I left my friend, because she was like, okay, I'm gonna go with my mom.

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I'm like, okay. And she's like, where are you gonna be? I'm like. I don't know, girl. I'll

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text you. And I was off with my cousins for a couple of days, and then I came back and

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I was just like, I made it. you know. I think that's the best way to experience it is like

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go in and experience, be amongst the people. That's usually how we go. And that's funny.

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think the cool part about Caribbean culture is that like the family aspect, right? Like

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using, you met relatives you'd never seen before, but like they welcomed you and it's like...

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and do this and it's like, that's pretty cool. think the sense of community, I guess I would

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say,  that they have there. So  that's pretty neat.  That's cool. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, yeah,

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just family that you've never met treating you like they've known you forever. It's just like

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one of the nicest feelings. like, yeah, Jamaican people are the same way. Like, my mom will

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call up people that she hasn't talked to and like... 30 years. Like the other day, we needed

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to go to London. And she's like, Oh, I have a friend in London. I haven't talked to her

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for like 30 years, but she like called her up. then now they're like talk all the time. So

30:27 → 30:31
it's like, yeah, it's the name thing, too, that you said, like referencing. You're like, Oh,

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I don't know. Like your parents saying refer to them as one name. And then you learn this

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is actually their real name. That's definitely something it's like. It's like, oh, this person

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is named Pinky. But it's like, what's her real like? you know, and so like have things like

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that. And everyone has a nickname. Yeah. Well, cool, I'm glad you got to visit. That's a good

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experience. Yeah. And you mentioned that, your grandfather's side is from  Tobago more. Can

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you kind of talk about... Because I feel like when we talk about Trinidad, it's always Trinidad

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and Tobago, but like,  the Tobago side kind of gets, like, forgotten a little bit. So can

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you talk about kind of the difference between the two  and just how they coexist  in terms

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of... being one country. Yeah, I think, well, most of don't know where Trinidad and Tobago

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is. So Trinidad Tobago is off the coast of Venezuela for those of people who are like, wait, where?

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It's it's literally off the coast of Venezuela. Trinidad is the more industrialized island.

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It's where the capital is. I guess Tobago, I don't know if Tobago's airport is international.

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Well, it's probably international, like Caribbean, but like if you're trying to get Elsewhere

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you probably need to go to the airport in  Port of Spain. Tobago is just lush  and  mountains

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and  like jungle and  just very peaceful. So if you think about  where you would have carnival,

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you play mass like in Trinidad. And then after you are  so sore and so drunk,  you would go

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to the beaches of Tobago to like rec-  and to like get your life together before you go back

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home. So maybe like that would help people like to understand like the different vibes that

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are going on between the two  islands.  Yeah, that's great.  So when you were in Trinidad,

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a common question we like to ask is like, did you feel like you fit in or did you feel like

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you stood out like, oh, people are like, oh, she's American, you know? I mean, when I opened

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up my mouth, they were like, what? Like some of my... But some of my cousins are like, yes,

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they're Trinidadian. I'm used to the Trinidadian accent from my grandparents, but some of them

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are like country. You know what I mean? Like there's country, Caribbean, where I'd be like,

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what are you saying to me? And my cousins would get so mad at me, especially there's one, she

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would get so mad at me because she'd be talking to me. And I'd just be like blank. I'd be like,

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girl, I can't tell you what you just said to me. I don't know what's going on. I no idea.

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And so. You know, I think from appearance, because Trinidad is so multi-ethnic, so you could kind

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of look like whatever and be Trinidadian, basically.  That when I opened my mouth was an issue.

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Also, when I went,  I was natural. had natural, had like a fro. Yeah,  I had like a fro, had

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like a puff.  And natural hair movement. hadn't hit, I would say, my cousins.  So my cousins

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saw me and they were like, girl, we need to do something with your hair.  And I was like,

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I know none of my cousins are gonna watch this, so that's okay.  Because she said that to me

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and she took me to one of her homegirl's hair salons and her homegirl had one of those little

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nubby nub ponytails and I was like, I know  somebody with a nubby nub ponytail. Is that

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talking about my natural hair?  But I didn't say that because I was like, day one of me

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hanging out with my cousin, was like, I don't need to like  get into fisticuffs with my cousin.

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My granddad's going to be like, what's going on? And I was just like,  I'm good. But they

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were like, are you sure you want us to do something with this? And then I was like, I'm good. You

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know what I mean? So I think that is an interesting  tension, I think.  Natural hair and I don't

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think like. skin bleaching is a big thing in Trinidad. Maybe it is, but maybe it'd be more

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with like the Hindu kind of culture. Maybe they would be more into it, but... Yeah. I think

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that was one of the things that they were like, oh, you are American because you want your

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hair to look like that. And I was like, yes, it is done. This is what I want it to look

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like. Do you a guess I don't know? Like you mentioned that Trinidad is very like multi-ethnic.

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What are some of the common ethnicities that you see there? Yeah, so... You have  Indians

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from India.  You have  Chinese people. You have  Black people. You also have like Indigenous

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mixes.  Now there's a lot of Venezuelans as well.  And so you see there's just a lot of

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mixes as well.  And then, you know, there are also like...  a small minority of  Lebanese

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or something like that as well. So  it's a very  mixed  kind of country. I kind of feel like

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most of the Caribbean, maybe not all of it, but I don't know anyone who's like, I'm just

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this. Because it doesn't make sense. We all have some of this and some of that. It's just

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maybe more  of  whatever than something else. Yeah.  Definitely Indian was one that I knew

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about. But yeah, have seen that Jamaica has a Chinese too. And kind of like to your point,

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you were saying earlier about like how a lot of people think you from the Caribbean are

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just like black. And it's like, no, like it. There's a lot of different like people. They're

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Chinese Jamaicans. They're this there. And if you were like, really? And it's, know, I think

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sometimes at least for. Jamaican stereotypes is like, you know, black with dreads and something

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like that's probably what they think. you know,  whatever Bob Marley  looked like is kind of

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or whoever the biggest maybe public figure is from the country is kind of what people think.

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Oh, that's what they all look like.  But I think that's one of the coolest parts is that  so

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much of  the different ethnicities and stuff makes it really unique. Yeah, I read a lot

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of Spanish people think I'm Jamaican and I'm like,  no, you're not. And I'm like. No, try

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again. What is this?  It's yeah, it's it's the locks. Like they just think like, oh, like

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if you have locks, like you must be Jamaican. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I read a book one time where

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it was about basically the Caribbean at large. like he was saying that the Caribbean is basically

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like the original globalization. Like people think like globalization started with like

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airplanes and the internet and stuff. like, nah, like the Caribbean and like the slave

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trade and all that was, that's like the original globalization. Like people came from all over

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the world to these Caribbean islands and the countries still reflect that in a lot of cases.

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So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I like that. I mean, that makes complete sense. Yeah.

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Yeah. No, it's true. I thought that was a really interesting anecdote too. I want to talk about

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maybe how your  Trinidadian background has also affected like your work a little bit. I  mean,

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you talk a lot about wellness and obviously about living abroad. Has that, has having that

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background of like of your grandparents and  dad being an immigrant as well, has that kind

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of affected your own view of your experience living abroad and  what you view as wellness?

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You know,  I think it has to. I feel like until recently, I didn't really understand fully

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why I went abroad.  And that sounds crazy. But like, it wasn't until recently where I was

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like, I think I was trying to create some distance. I think I was  really trying to, yeah, trying

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to, I don't maybe run away trying to escape from some of the  would say,  how do I say

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this diplomatically,  some of the expectations that are placed upon,  you know, children of

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Caribbean,  yeah, parents, grandparents,  I think I was trying to do that. think that,

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hmm.   I'll say this. I don't think I recognized how I was perceived  as a Black American and

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Trinidadian young woman as I grew up.  And I say that because I think that I excelled in

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school and I did all the things. And it wasn't until I was older that a lot of people accredited

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that to me being Trinidadian and not Black American. And I that was so interesting. And I thought...

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also with my friends who are also immigrants from different places,  they would be like,

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oh,  like that was something that they were like, oh, well, you're not just black, you're

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Trinidad and you're Caribbean. So that means something else.  And then expectation. And

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I didn't and I did not realize that until I was much older. And then I had to reflect upon

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like all my interactions with people and how they treated me  when and how they changed

40:04 → 40:08
when they learned I was Caribbean as well.  And then like  as if everything made sense.

40:08 → 40:15
And I was like, wait, what? Okay. And I bring that up because I think that  part of this

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wellness journey has been about  like a reclamation of who I am and  what am I about  and how

40:25 → 40:31
I  at least try to reclaim the narrative of how I represent into the world.  can't because

40:31 → 40:35
people,  can't fully because people are going to perceive you and receive you however they

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want and then put on their biases, but I think the wellness, at least how my grandparents

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and my father and Trinidadian culture has affected my wellness has been, I think, I think I could

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have been really offended or rejected that kind of thing because I grew up with a black American

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mother who was brilliant and amazing and she's probably most of the reason why I'm a brilliant,

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amazing person. But I think going abroad has given me the space to reclaim and to participate

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in both of my heritages in the way that I want to, not in a colonialized view. Because I realized

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what people of other ethnicities, not just white people, and I'm not sure white people even

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understand the distinction, there's like black, whatever. Other people, Africans or Asians,

41:27 → 41:31
things like that, they were making a distinction between black American and Trinidadian, and

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black American was bad, and Trinidadian would be like, oh, okay, you're serious about your

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studies, that's why you're smart. I think it was like a reclamation. And I think it's strange

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because I'm like in an OG colonizer country. But I think that the wellness that I have here

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is because it's kind of like, okay, negra, okay. You know what I mean? I'm left alone to decide

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what these terms mean, what these identities mean for me. And I don't have necessarily the

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pressure to conform. all the time. I mean, I think within family structures, you have a

42:07 → 42:12
lot of pressure to conform.  You know, if I went up to London and met up with some of my

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cousins,  they'd be like, what do you mean? You don't know this or that, or you don't do

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this or that. And I'd be like, and yet I'm still Trinidadian. I'm still blood related to you.

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So I don't know if that answers your question, but for me, the wellness that I think I was

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always seeking, and I wasn't conscious of has always been about reclamation, reclamation

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of identity and of my time and of this life. Because I think also it's very common for immigrant

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kids to sign over your life to your parents. You know what I mean? You want me to be a lawyer?

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I my mom wanted me to be a lawyer and I was like, You know what I mean? And my grandparents

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were thrilled because everyone's like, oh yeah, lawyer. It's very easy for us to sign over

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our lives and then just have like hidden lives and  do that type of thing.  And by totally

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going rogue,  it was  very offensive to a lot of people. It was very strange.  And  it's

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a reclamation of me in this life and what I've decided to do. It hasn't been easy.  And I

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haven't been sure of myself all the time.  I don't know. But  I  think that is what being

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turned a daddy has  driven me to do. And I don't know if that really makes sense, but that's

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how I see it.  Yeah,  that totally makes sense. like you said about having kind of... Not wanting

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to sign over your life to your parents, but like  you said, there's a lot of pressure

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when you have immigrant parents or immigrant grandparents. Yeah, they want...  your life

43:57 → 44:02
to go a certain way because they basically don't want you to have  as much hardship as they

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probably had or they see like... It comes from good intentions, I guess. Yeah, I think a lot

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of times they come to America and they're like, wow, you have so many opportunities, like take

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advantage, like you can make so much money and do this and be successful. And then like, at

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least for me, it's like, no, I want to be a singer. Like, you know what mean? Like, it's

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just I think that's like unfathomable to them that you would choose to like you would not

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choose to take advantage of like... you know, just being some successful business person

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or lawyer or whatever, because they're like, you can do that here. like, maybe didn't have

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those same opportunities where they came from. So, yeah, I get it. But you do have to kind

44:39 → 44:48
of like claim your own life and try and find out who you are outside of those kind of expectations.

44:48 → 44:52
was being a lawyer something that you actually wanted to do or was that something that you

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felt kind of... steered to do and then like what, how did your family react when you decided

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to do go rogue as you put it?  Um, I don't think I ever wanted to be a lawyer. I think I just

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did the things that my parents expected. Like, don't know. Did I want to go to college? No,

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I'm not sure if I wanted to, but I did because that's what's expected. Um, so,  and that was

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a really tough journey for me because being in law school, I was in law school in Miami.

45:23 → 45:30
My mom had gotten diagnosed with breast cancer maybe like a month before I had left. And so

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was dealing with that and then I was, I don't come from a family of lawyers. So it was also

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very interesting because I was like, you guys want to be a lawyer, but like, where am I going

45:38 → 45:43
to work afterwards? And they're like, just go to law school, you'll figure it out. And that's

45:43 → 45:48
tough as well. You know, being the first person in my family to ever go to professional school.

45:48 → 45:56
That's like a big deal.  And I went to law school and I did things I was supposed to do. I got

45:56 → 46:02
so many externships, internships. I interned with a federal mattership judge. I interned

46:02 → 46:07
with Zumba fitness. I did all the things to try to figure out like where I fit. And I just

46:07 → 46:12
didn't. I was like, I don't want to be a lawyer. I have the capacity to do it, but I just didn't

46:12 → 46:21
want to. And that was difficult because maybe If I was a courageous person and I was a self-aware

46:21 → 46:27
person like I think I am now, maybe I would have dropped out of law school in my first

46:27 → 46:32
year, which is crazy to even say. I'm like kind of nervous that I just said it out loud. Maybe

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I would have, because also we don't quit things. That's not an option. Maybe I would have because

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I've been like, this is not what I want to do, but I didn't. I did all the things I was supposed

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to do. I became president of my law school class. Only the second black person ever to do it,

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which should have been a red flag.

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But by the time I got out of law school, just dealing with my mom's illness, not really wanting

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to be a lawyer, but also the politics of being in student government, which sounds ridiculous

47:15 → 47:21
to say, but it was... horrific. When I think about it now, I'm like, why did you put up

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with any of that nonsense?  I was burnt out and I didn't, I definitely knew I didn't want

47:26 → 47:31
to be a lawyer. I was quite angry with like everyone and everything. I did not want to

47:31 → 47:38
graduate, like  go to my graduation.  My mother was like, you absolutely will.  You will do

47:38 → 47:45
that.  And so I did, but you know, instead of getting  a legal job or even taking the bar,

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I joined a startup in downtown Miami. you know, people are like, okay, you have a job. But

47:54 → 47:57
everyone's like, but you're gonna, you're gonna stop playing around. You're gonna be a lawyer.

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You're gonna just, you're gonna do this. And I was just like, no,  I just didn't want to.

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And it was like the first time in my life that I allowed how I felt to really  like reign

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supreme.  Perhaps that has been a little bit foolish and petulant because I still kind of

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operate like that now, like 14 years later. But it was just like a taste of like, I can

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do whatever I want in my life. And I don't think I knew that. And I was obviously an adult,

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adults. I graduated law school when I was 25, 26.

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But was the first time that I was like, no, I'm not going to do anything. And, you know,

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no one's going to come after me with a switch or no one's going to punish me. You know what

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mean? Like all these things that I think are like subconscious. And after I did that, you

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know, I was like, oh, I'm going to continue to do whatever I want to do. My family was

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disappointed and that was hard to deal with because I had never disappointed them before.

49:05 → 49:08
You know, I mean, I wasn't allowed to go to parties when was in high school. You know what

49:08 → 49:16
mean? I wasn't doing none of the stuff at all. And then when I did the stuff in college,

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I had enough brains not to keep up the D.O. You know what mean? I wasn't  a disappointment

49:22 → 49:30
to my family. And to go from something that they  call the aunties about and do about to

49:30 → 49:36
being like, what are you doing?  Get your life together.  That was really difficult. to deal

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with and I think is probably more damaging than I would have wanted to admit. It took a while

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for me to recover and to learn that to live the life that I wanted to live, I had to be

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okay with disappointing people. I had to be okay with people being, for people not getting

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it and just being like, oh, you could have been da da da. And I'm like, and I'm not.

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Yeah,  I still think I have a lot of family and friends who are like,  one day you will

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stop playing around, you will come back to Atlanta and you will be a lawyer.  And I'm like, wow,

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you guys are delusional, but okay.  Hold it on.  And how did your family react to you moving

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abroad? what and yeah, what did they think about you deciding to live abroad? I think after

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the lawyer thing, I don't think much else has shocked them. You know what I mean? After that,

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they were like, okay. My family, I think it's because, you know, my dad's side, immigrants,

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my mom's side, I always call them like a small nomadic tribe of women. They have, like they

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get up and go. Like, they want to get a new job, they want to do this, they want to do

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that. Like they just got up and they went. So I didn't have any pressure from anyone to be

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like, no, stay with me, be close to me, anything like that. My mom was very much like, go live

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your life and figure it out and come home when you want to. And I think that's been a blessing

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because I've had plenty of guests on my show where their decision to leave their family

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has caused huge issues in their life. and  has been a source of survivor's guilt,  actually.

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I mean, I had a guest  in season four, I would say, Sheila, she's an  Endora. She used to

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be a professional basketball player in Barcelona. And she describes a really heartbreaking  story

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because she was adopted.   to a family  of like 13 kids. Her mom was a single mom, kind of

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a hoarder kind of thing. Wasn't the best upbringing, but there was lots of love, but her decision

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to  pursue  basketball  in college, and she went to an IV, and then she went to grad school

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and played basketball, and then it took her to Barcelona. Like those decisions to take

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herself out of this cycle, her family cycle. and away from her family really caused a lot

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of hurt and some things that I don't know will ever be recoverable because the way she told

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the story I was like,  like this, it's pretty crazy. So I'm fortunate that that wasn't my

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situation because it  can be  a huge fracture in some families, which I understand in some

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capacity, but. I also think that migration  is so natural for a lot of us that it feels

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very strange that that would be a deal breaker, I think.  But luckily for me,  my family came

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and visited. My mom actually got stuck with me in Barcelona during the pandemic. And that

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was  a special time.  Because she was stuck with me from...  She came to Barcelona at the

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end of February, 2020, and she left Barcelona in September of 2020. Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh.

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So it was a time for us to connect and to be together in a one-bedroom apartment that I

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was not planning to share. But yeah, my family's been very supportive. But I also would have

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to say this, that I'm very particular type of personality, and I don't know I've always been

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this way or just the way I've lived life, I've become very fiercely like, and what about it?

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And what about it? And I think my  close family gets that and I think they're similar too.

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So I haven't had anyone really press me about a lot of my decisions for many, many years

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because I'm like, it's not really a conversation and I'm not sure if they really want to go

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there with me about it. So... That's good. I aspire to get to that point of my life, honestly.

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For people pleasers to a fault. Yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah. Before we get into some fun light

54:35 → 54:40
questions, I did want to ask, too, about now that you are living abroad and I don't know

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if you consider yourself, I know there's a lot of controversy about whether to call yourself

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an immigrant or an expat, like just the terminology, but... As someone who has lived abroad for

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a while, has that kind of changed your perspective  on your grandparents and your dad's experience

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as immigrants in the US? Absolutely.  And I consider myself an immigrant.  I moved myself

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abroad. No  cushy corporate job  that's temporary. I'm like, I wish that were great.  Put me up

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in corporate housing.  consider myself an immigrant and  I do think so because what I recognize

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is that  there is, it's a conscious decision to stay someplace and I think people don't

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recognize that. To be outside of your cultural context can be very traumatic.  You can create

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community, you can find your rhythm and things like that, but it's a very exhausting experience

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to be an immigrant no matter how well you know the the language  or the customs or anything

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like that because you are constantly surveying something that is just strange and foreign

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to you.  And then  you're constantly having to reconcile the things that you're seeing

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and you're experiencing and you're like, this is Spanish. Yes,  but I am, you know,  it's

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like you're constantly trying to reconcile  whether  take offense or whether you think

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it's weird or things like that.  And also  you have to  look around and say, oh,  I'm choosing

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this. It's a different type of feeling.  If I was in Atlanta, I could probably say, yeah,

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I'm choosing this, but not really because I grew up there, but like, I'm  choosing to be

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here. So when things are hard or annoying or strange or like weird or whatever. I'm like,

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oh, I'm choosing to be here.  I'm choosing to be here. It requires so much  energy to be

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present because it kind of forces you to be really present in your life a lot,  to switch

56:57 → 57:05
between languages.  It's a lot of energy. So I could imagine it's just exhausting to be

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an immigrant, to constantly be going between worlds, whether it be language or just culture.

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like constantly doing that. And so I can definitely empathize a lot to be like, it's very strange.

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know,  someplace can feel very familiar and you're like, yeah, I know it. But then inside

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you're like, it's not all the way me. It's not. And something I was actually talking to one

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of my homegirls recently, I was like, the funny thing is that the longer I stay abroad, this

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will be my eighth year, the more I feel  Trinidadian, And the more I feel Southern, like these feelings,

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I just feel very like I'm not just American because what does that even mean? Like I feel

57:53 → 58:00
these two identities very strongly now, more and more. so, um, and I don't know what that's

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about or what that's going to do. Um, I don't know, but I can definitely empathize with just

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the amount of energy and how exhausting it is to live between worlds. and to  have to do

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that type of check-in to see, it worth it? Is it still worth it?  Are you sure?  And you

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don't necessarily have to do that when you don't leave  your home country.  Yeah, absolutely.

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That's true. All right. Well,  we always like to kind of end with some  kind of fun lighter

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questions at the end here. So  my first question and...  It's okay. This is always a difficult

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one, but hopefully you have an answer. Do you have like a favorite expression or Trinidadian

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saying?   I don't think it's Trinidadian. I think it's what my grandparents say.  I think

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something that's just like probably Caribbean, it's not exclusively Trinidadian. I think it's

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just like kissing your teeth or sucking your teeth.  I do that and I'm like, you know, because

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they don't really do it here in Europe. So they're like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm

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over this. Yes. Yes. You know what mean? Like that's what it is. I'm like, I'm over it. And

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they're like, Why are making that noise? like, because that was your warning. That's the warning

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before, know, the good cussing comes out. yeah,  not much of a saying, I would say. It's yeah,

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kissing your teeth. That's a good one. That, yeah, Jamaicans obviously do that as well.

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And yeah, that is,  it's just like,  I just do that naturally now. It's just like, yeah,

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when you're frustrated, that's like my first  action.  Yes. What are some of your favorite

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foods? Your daddying foods. Oh, God. Everything. I love everything. I love everything in Trinidad.

1:00:00 → 1:00:07
There's nothing that I don't like. I love doubles. I love doubles so much. What is that? actually

1:00:07 → 1:00:18
don't know what that is. Oh, oh, gosh. Doubles is you have like a small... I guess it's like

1:00:18 → 1:00:26
a small roti. I don't think it's actually roti, but it's like that. You have chana, so you

1:00:26 → 1:00:34
have garbanzo chickpeas. It's like a sweet chickpea sauce and you can have different types of chutneys

1:00:34 → 1:00:42
or salsas on it. It's like street food and you just fold it up and you eat it. It's so delicious.

1:00:43 → 1:00:49
It's everything that's good and it's all like... maybe you get like three, four, maybe five

1:00:49 → 1:00:58
US or something like that.  I love that. I love  everything.  You know, because I'm sure you

1:00:58 → 1:01:04
guys, you know, in Jamaica, you've had like Chinese Jamaican food.  And I think like  that

1:01:04 → 1:01:10
fusion is amazing. And so we have that as well in Trinidad. So I like, I like  everything.

1:01:10 → 1:01:15
Like  everything. Everything whenever I go to Trinidad, I think that's why I gained like

1:01:15 → 1:01:20
10 pounds. I was like, oh, I've got to stop eating or I need to stop having like seven

1:01:20 → 1:01:28
doubles at a time. So I'd be like, no, I need anymore. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Okay,

1:01:28 → 1:01:32
cool. Learn something. You know about doubles and I've heard of double and I generally like

1:01:32 → 1:01:39
knew about it. Sounds good. And our mom's been making like this like Trinidad. It's like this

1:01:39 → 1:01:43
bag that she gets at like Whole Foods or something. It's like Trinidadian chicken.  something,

1:01:43 → 1:01:47
another, and then she'll make it. Yeah, I don't know. She's been like making that lately. Because

1:01:47 → 1:01:52
like she has a, she had my mom, you know,  we grew up in Miami.  like we have, you know,

1:01:52 → 1:01:55
yeah, there's like all kinds of Caribbean people there. And like my mom has some really good

1:01:55 → 1:02:00
Trinidadian friends, especially one good, really good Trinidadian friend who she like, yeah,

1:02:00 → 1:02:04
gets a lot of like...  Auntie that who's not our aunt. Do you guys do that too? Or is this

1:02:04 → 1:02:11
person's aunt this? They're not really our aunt. It's just like a family.  Everyone's an auntie

1:02:11 → 1:02:19
or uncle.  I think it's a sign of respect. Like you just say, uncle, auntie.  I mean, even

1:02:19 → 1:02:24
like my mom, who's black American,  I have aunties and things like that. But I think like  in

1:02:24 → 1:02:29
the South, instead of saying  uncle and auntie, you just say like miss and mister to everyone.

1:02:29 → 1:02:36
Like Miss Josie, Mr. Tim. So think that's why we always say just like uncle, auntie. Yeah,

1:02:36 → 1:02:43
that's true. Respecting your elders is definitely a big thing.  And the culture. It's the only

1:02:43 → 1:02:51
way. Yeah. that is true. Absolutely. My mom was very strict about that. Yeah. I couldn't

1:02:51 → 1:02:58
say like, yeah, or what? Like, yes, mom.  Yes. Yeah. Yes.  So I think it's made me more respectful

1:02:58 → 1:03:04
as a person. Oh, yeah. I see kids talking to their parents. like, oh, I could never do that.

1:03:04 → 1:03:16
My goodness.  Yeah. Yeah.  Do you have a favorite happy place in Trinidad from the times that

1:03:16 → 1:03:22
you visited? Is there a particular place that you feel is like, oh, this makes me feel at

1:03:22 → 1:03:34
home? I mean, the beach, for sure. Morocco's beach, maybe. But like, I think going to the

1:03:34 → 1:03:41
beach and being with my cousins and having shark and bait and things like that, because a beach

1:03:41 → 1:03:47
isn't just a beach, as you guys know. It's a different feeling  eating mango on the beach.

1:03:47 → 1:03:55
That was really  amazing.  And then also seeing the church where my grandmother used to go

1:03:55 → 1:04:03
to and things like that, that was just really beautiful. And then just... The incredible

1:04:03 → 1:04:13
beauty of the Caribbean is  mind-blowing.  And it's kind of like, why do I live anywhere else?

1:04:13 → 1:04:20
This is the land of my people. Why would I go anywhere else?  And the food and the fruits

1:04:20 → 1:04:29
and everything is so good. Yeah,  it  kind of feels like everything is really memorable.

1:04:29 → 1:04:35
The sun sets.  freaking roosters, you know, everywhere and the dogs and you're just like,

1:04:35 → 1:04:43
what is this? So, yeah.  That's beautiful. I've always, yeah, I appreciate like the raw beauty

1:04:43 → 1:04:50
of Jamaica. It just feels like everywhere in the US feels like it's being built on, you

1:04:50 → 1:04:54
know I mean? Like everywhere you go, it's like any little plot of land is like, there's a

1:04:54 → 1:04:58
sign that's like for sale or it's being built on. And so it's like, I really appreciated

1:04:58 → 1:05:02
that about Jamaica as well. that like, just, there was just a lot of just raw beauty. Like

1:05:02 → 1:05:06
no one's trying to build on it. It's just... It's just there, it's just existing. And it's

1:05:06 → 1:05:14
been there for a while. it's just, yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah. Well, Christine, thank

1:05:14 → 1:05:20
you so much for being here. We really, really enjoyed talking to you. yeah, I feel like I

1:05:20 → 1:05:27
great reflection things I need to. Gave a lot of insight. So thank you so much for sharing

1:05:27 → 1:05:34
your wisdom with us. We are so grateful to have you here. And yeah, where can people find you

1:05:34 → 1:05:42
online? Yes. No, we want to ask that. Yes. Where can people find you before we go? Yeah. Well,

1:05:42 → 1:05:46
thank you both so much for having me. I really appreciate this conversation because nobody

1:05:46 → 1:05:54
ever asked me this. So this is really fun for me. You can find me online at flourishintheforeign.com.

1:05:54 → 1:06:02
That's where my podcast lives, but also lives across all podcasting platforms as well.  Um,

1:06:02 → 1:06:08
you know, I have social media, but like, I'm not the best on social media. So  I'll just

1:06:08 → 1:06:14
be like, you know,  go with your own risk, but you can find me there. I'm on all the platforms.

1:06:14 → 1:06:21
just, you know, I am not  super active  there.  Um, I think my handle is at flourish foreign

1:06:21 → 1:06:28
across all,  um, platforms on LinkedIn  and yeah. Cool. We'll share all that stuff in the,

1:06:28 → 1:06:32
yes, we will have all that in the description. But yeah, we'll. We appreciate this. This is

1:06:32 → 1:06:38
really fun.  It kind of took a different route than we usually do, but I felt very enlightened.

1:06:38 → 1:06:43
Yeah,  me too. Just different ways to think about things. This it's like to listen to Christine's

1:06:43 → 1:06:47
podcast, by the way. So everyone go check that out. there you go. She's always dropping with

1:06:47 → 1:06:53
soap.  Love it. We need more positivity in this world.  So I like it. I like it. Yeah. Thank

1:06:53 → 1:06:56
you so much, Christine. We appreciate you. Thank you.