Harnessing Your Unfair Advantage | Growing Up With Iraqi Parents feat. Hasan

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Hello and welcome to Culture In Between, a podcast that explores the unique experiences of people

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who have grown up in a culture outside of their parents' culture. We are your hosts, Alyssa

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and Brianna, and we are super stoked to get to talk with Hasan Kubba, whose parents are

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from Iraq. Hasan, thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited to get to chat with

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you today. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah. So I'll give a brief introduction to

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you, but Hasan is the award-winning author, consultant, and coach. He is the co-author

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of... The Unfair Advantage, how you already have what it takes to succeed. I have it here

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on my Kindle. I first heard about this book when  Ali Abdelal reviewed it in his book review

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series. And it is an amazing book. has thousands of five star Amazon and Goodreads reviews,

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one business book of the year, all these things, all these accolades. It's a really great book.

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We will share a link to it in the description. Hasan, I've gone over some brief accolades

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about you, but is there anything you would like to add before we dive into the interview?

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Um,  no, think you've covered it. What I like to say is that I'm an,  I say in the book as

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well, I'm an unnatural entrepreneur. I basically took an online course and started. So if you

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feel like, like me, if you feel like, oh, you weren't always hustling, selling stuff, buying

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stuff, doing stuff when you're young, that's okay. You can just learn to do it. And that's

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what I've done.  Um, but I kind of a bit more of a solo entrepreneur type consultant. I mean,

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I have a bit of a team. but it's not like  a huge, mean, entrepreneurship is more of a spectrum

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than a binary, are you an entrepreneur or not?  But I kind of have  bit of a team  and now

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I've niched down to coaching and consulting people on getting a book deal, on becoming

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authors themselves, on sharing their expertise and credibility, coming up with great concepts,

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whether it's non-fiction, which is my usual, but also some fiction authors recently.  So

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that's been really, really fun, but I've done a whole other thing of...  been a business

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coach to YouTubers, to startup founders,  especially focused on marketing strategy, that kind of

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side and organic content. So that's my favorite stuff to talk about. And that's kind of my

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background.  Awesome. Brianna has  a pipe dream of like  writing to write a book one day and

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she's like, I've never, you should, I'm just saying. It just feels so daunting, but one

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of these days. Yeah. I'm just saying.  It's daunting. That's why I help people with it,

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because it's something that's easy to do something good.  To do something any old how, any old

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way  is fine. But doing something that you're proud of and that maybe you can get a book

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deal out of, that you can become a bestseller out of, it's not easy. And that's why it's

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a fun area for me to be in right now and consulting.  All right. Well, this might be a little bit

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of a different interview for you because we're  pretty laser focused on talking about culture

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and your cultural background,  but we will get into entrepreneurship as well.  But we always

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like to start the podcast by asking our guests  where exactly their parents are from and where

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you grew up. So can you tell us where exactly in Iraq your parents are from and where you

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grew up? Sure. This is  fun for me to talk about actually.  My parents are from Baghdad, the

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capital of Iraq.  And that's where I was born as well. Do you have a lot of memory? know

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I know it's  I'm trying to draw the line between I read the book and not everyone probably has.

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So  I know the answer to some of these questions. But  so you mentioned that, you you moved to

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England at the age of three. But like, do you remember being  in Iraq at all? I don't remember

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Iraq. I have like this. I think we moved  on the way to. So essentially there was the Gulf

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War.  Well, actually, so I was born  And in those three years, I lived through two wars,

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finally. There was the Iran-Iraq war. And then there was  the  what's usually in the West

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called the Gulf War, which is when,  which is in around 91. It's  when Saddam Hussein invaded

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Kuwait,  this tiny little neighboring country next to Iraq.  And as soon as that second war

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was over,  my parents were like, we're out of here. know, so they were privileged enough

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to be able to have the ability to leave,  um, in terms of financially, in terms of, know,

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just the get up and go nature of it.  Um, and so, yeah, we, as soon as we were able to travel

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opened up again, after that war ended, we got out of there  and we're very lucky that we

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did. And so, um, the way it worked is that we,  they crossed the border into the neighboring

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country, Jordan.  And I think we were there for a few months  and then came over to London.

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And I don't really remember Iraq. No, I just see photos and stuff. So I don't know if they're

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like Phantom memories or just the photos. But I remember like, for some reason, there's a

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little snippet of a memory of when we were in Jordan. Weirdly, we were only there for a few

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months, but I guess I was a little bit older. So I just have a glimpse of a memory there

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and maybe some glimpse of memories.  Iraq as well, but I'm not sure if they're really my

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memories or whether they're just looking at photos and just thinking, I remember it. So

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yeah, it's my born and birth, like pretty, not really, not literally born, but  grew up in

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London in England. And that's just where I've always known to be home. And that's where I've

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always lived.  Apart from some,  I've done quite a bit of traveling, but in terms of where I've

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actually had as a base, it's always been  in London and England. Did you have relatives

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in London? what, why was London the next choice for your parents to go to? Cause I know- We

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we did. My uncle lived here. Okay. And so we were able to come and join him and then the

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rest of like my mom's family were here. And I think maybe some of my dad's family as well,

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a few like for more extended relatives. Um, but essentially look, to give you some background,

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Iraq is not a poor country. It wasn't a poor country. fact, especially in the seventies,

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let's say it was at a peak, um, where they were very wealthy. It was a kind of like the Dubai

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and the Qatar and the Saudi Arabia of its time, because it has a ton of oil. Like it's not

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an unwell and it's not just oil. Like it's not just new rich. Iraq has a lot of history. First

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of all, like the cradle of civilization, all these ancient civilizations started there because

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there's two rivers that run through it. So there was a lot of like, um, The oldest city in the

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world is in Iraq. Writing was invented in Iraq.  It was like, there's all these different things

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that come from Iraq. It's kind of like, you know how ancient Egypt? Yeah. Like think of

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the Babylonians, Sumerians, Akkadians. That was all Iraq. So Iraq has a lot of history.

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That's ancient history, but there's also more recent history in the Islamic golden age, which

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is around a thousand years ago. It was like way ahead of Europe. was way ahead. was scientific,

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you know, center point of the world.  And, um, you know, just to kind of give that a little

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bit of background to it.  And what happened is that even let's jump all the way forward

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to like the 1970s, things were super well developed. They used to come to the UK in the summers

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and like, so it wasn't something new. They'd already been, my parents used to travel to

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the U S to the UK. They were from a middle or upper middle-class family in Baghdad. So Yeah,

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just to give that overview, because people kind of think, oh, like a war-torn country. No,

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it's not like that. It's became war-torn. It had all these issues. But the reality is that

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it's, even right now, it's developing super fast because there's wealth, there's money

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there. Just thought I'd give that background to No, yeah, I appreciate that. That's really

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great. I think that's, you know, good for us to learn. That's why I always love doing these

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interviews. I feel like I learned so much. And yes, I think people do think, oh, war-torn.

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this and that and have preconceived notion about it. So that's great to hear that background.

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Yes, I agree as well that it's really good to give that background because I think a lot

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of people do have there's a lot of misconceptions about Iraq and really that part of the world

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in general. And I would say, I mean, why I had asked specifically why if you had relatives

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in England is because, you know, for our parents moving to the U.S. it's very common that like

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immigrants is like if they are, you know, leaving their country, it's like,  where are people

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that I know residing in at the moment? So I just was curious if they were kind of the first

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ones to go there not. yeah. Yeah. And I was curious if you have any siblings, did you have

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any siblings that are older than you that lived in Iraq or now?  No, younger than me. I have

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younger siblings.  And  yeah, so like one of my siblings  was born in Iraq and the other

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was born in London. Okay. I'm the eldest. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So they... They definitely don't

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remember because of you. Okay, gotcha. So, wow. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So even though...

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It's been really... Sorry to jump in, but it's been really, really interesting to  visit Iraq

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again as an adult.  So like there was basically a huge gap where I went  once  in 2009  and

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that was just one visit. And then more recently, I went in  2023. And that was really, really

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fascinating how much it's developed, how much it's getting better, how much it's improving.

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And there's still in many ways, still some ways to go, but you'd be surprised how it developed

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and how nice different parts of like Baghdad are like right now. Like it's crazy. And you

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can argue that quality of life for some people there is better than here in the UK, which

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is, you know, can be hard to believe, but it's just plain old truth. No, that's great. definitely

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we were going to dive into if you visited, which now we know that is the case, but we'll definitely

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dive in more into your experiences there because I'm definitely curious. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

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But before we get to that, I think I wanted to ask, you know, even though you mentioned

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that you don't have really memories of being a child in New York and you feel like a kind

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of almost like a born and bred Londoner, even though you weren't born there, do you? Remember

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though, feeling different in like growing up in London, did you have a feeling of, I feel

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like a Londoner, but other people maybe don't view me that way? A hundred percent. A hundred

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percent. felt very different. I felt like I didn't fit in. I felt like I didn't have the

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cultural background. I felt like I didn't have the, some of the words and the understanding

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because you know, at home we just spoke Arabic. And we just had our own culture. And actually

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we were in, um, in a city, London. And so it was very much very diverse. London is a very

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diverse place because of the British empire. Essentially we actually have a lot of Jamaicans.

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have a lot of, um, basically  let's put it this way. They have lot of East Indies and West

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Indies. like Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, but also a lot of like Jamaicans and you know,

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other kind of Caribbean,  um,  African.  It's  different types of Europeans. London's always,

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you know, since I came in the nineties, been a huge melting pot.  And  I always felt different.

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always felt like,  even though it was this kind of environment, I still felt like  I wanted

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to fit in. I still felt insecure about my parents' accent when they spoke in English and  stuff

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like that. So I definitely felt that.  Like you mentioned, London is very multicultural.

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was your family kind of involved in the different communities there?  there a  sizable Iraqi

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community? And how was that dynamic? Yeah, there was.  There is a sizable Iraq community in

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London.  And we were very much integrated into that.  yeah, there's every community. An outsider

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wouldn't just... To give a random example, like there's a lot of Brazilians in London, but

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I wasn't,  I didn't know that growing up.  But once you meet Brazilians, they're like, Oh

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my God, London's full of Brazilians. mean, Brazil is a country with a very big population anyway.

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Um, but my point is like  every, that's how London is. Every kind of nationality has sizable

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community in London. It's a very, like in the States, you guys think of New York and maybe

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some other places as well as being a melting pot and very diverse. think London is more

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than New York. I've been to New York and yeah, it is very diverse. London is even more so.

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So  it's quite interesting. Yeah. So there definitely was an Iraqi community and we were

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part of that. And that's what we plugged into. That's cool. Nice. Yeah. So I do want to go

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back to  how you said you visited. So can you tell us about  those visits to Iraq  and  maybe

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how those came about and revisiting family or whatever? Yeah.  If you still have family there

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and then like if you do,  how you retreat it. Because a common trope we kind of see is that

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like, you you go back to  your parents country and it's like sometimes they make fun of you

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for not being, you know, oh, well, you like for us, it'd be like you're too Americanized

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and all this stuff. So just curious. Yeah. The experiences you've had.  Oh yeah, 100%. So

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look, I really think like this, I've thought about this a lot and it's interesting because

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socioeconomic background plays a big role.  and  that gives you privilege. So we came to

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London without, my dad came with like 200 pounds, which is like roughly like 300 bucks or something,

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something like that, right? In his pocket. Like we didn't have wealth. And we kind of just

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kind of struggled to get by and built slowly because my dad was able to get a new degree,

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a new post-grad degree. And he moved. He's an engineer. And then he went into I.T. And that

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was great. And he even eventually started working for Microsoft back in the Microsoft heydays

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of the year 2000. So we were able to slowly. start building up slowly with it. We became

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British citizens, slowly we were able to go on holiday and to afford our own house. so

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that sort of thing. So we developed slowly. So we didn't come with a lot of wealth. However,

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even though we didn't come with money in the pocket, we did have that very educated,  very

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like, like I said, middle upper class background  of, so it's like the kind of Baghdad elite.

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And that helped.  because my parents were very academic. They were able to push us into working

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hard here and doing well in school and et cetera. Why I mentioned that is because what happens

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with immigration is it happens in waves. And the ones who have the ability and the money

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to leave earlier are usually the more privileged and you end up having a brain drain. So it's

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the more educated, the more higher status jobs, the higher status positions in society leave

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first.  So it really can destroy and really affect country when this happens. That's why

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wars can be so in addition to the actual  casualties of the war, but you also have these second

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order effects of like people leaving and having a brain drain. So yeah, so the early immigrants

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like my family, and there's even one die even earlier from the seventies or whatever, like

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your parents went to the US in the seventies.  They're different. compared to the ones that

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came after the 2003 war, compared to the ones that came even after that. And so the other

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difference to talk about is for most, I mean, the U.S. is a little bit different, but for

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most countries, the difference between the capital city and the rest of the country is a huge

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difference. Like the provinces is like less educated, it's a little bit more backward,

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it's more conservative, it's more et cetera. Whereas the, we're from the capital.  And we're

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from like that kind of background where it was more Westernized. And so when you go into an

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immigrant community, so like in London, we would be mixing with people from all different parts

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of Iraq, which my parents wouldn't have mixed with necessarily in Iraq. But there are these

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kinds of differences that you start to notice. And then when you go back to visit, what happens

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is the culture, the accent, the what's cool, what isn't cool is not on pause. It continues

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to evolve.  You become like this funny time capsule.  of an immigrant community where you

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have your own slang, like the slang from the nineties, from the early nineties or something.

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And they're like, you sound different.  So when we go back, you're asking how it was like to

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go back. They're like, where are you from?  You don't sound like you're from, like to my

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parents who obviously speak really fluently with a proper native accent. They're like,

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where are from? Like, because the accent has evolved, they have the  accent from then. There's

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a funny thing to, these are subtle differences, but it's picked up by locals. Um, so yeah,

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it was really interesting to go back and to feel a bit like an outsider, but at the same

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time to feel at home. So we would go to like the mosque in London, where it will be like

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an Iraqi mosque where you hear the Iraqi dialect of Arabic spoken. So it weird to go to a country

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where everyone talks like that. You're like, what am I at the mosque? Like this is weird.

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It's an interesting feeling. It's an interesting thing. You do feel you have that, you know,

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I guess that's why they call them third culture, because you do have this whole, you don't really

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fit in here, you don't really fit in there, you just your own thing.  And that's the truth,

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and that's the reality of how it is.  We don't fully fit, even my parents don't fully fit

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in there, they're just like, oh, we kind of fit in with the London Iraqis now. Yeah. That's

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it is. That point about the time capsule is... Yes, we've talked about that before. Yeah,

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that's really interesting how you've mentioned that, how we feel like we have,  I don't know,

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with mom and dad, like... their version, guess, 70s version. Yeah, our parents moved to the

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US in the 70s and they've gone back a lot.  know, that was a really long time ago. And

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so they, you know, yeah, they definitely don't know a lot of like the latest slang. And  when

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we've gone back to Jamaica, it's yeah, it's a similar situation where like, people don't

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necessarily  like act like my mom  or our parents are  necessarily like foreigners, but They

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would kind of be like,  my mom does this thing where she puts on like an American accent all

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the time. like, especially when she's out with other people. And so she would do that in Jamaica

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sometimes. like, stop it.  We're trying to blend in. Like, stop doing that.  And they could

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just tell, you know, yeah,  just from like how you dress and all these things. Skin tone even,

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I think there are things which is interesting to me. Yeah, even our skin tone, Like they

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were like, oh, we can see that the sun hasn't been hitting you the same way. Like it's just

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very, the thing like before we even opened our mouths, they could tell. um,  yeah, I think

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that that is very,  and likewise there is a skin color difference  and there is a difference

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in how we dress. There's a difference in how we walk. It's, it's subtle things.  Something

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that's not so subtle is it's now getting better. Actually now they do start to, they've improved

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in this aspect, but it used to be like, you just reach for the seatbelt. They're like,

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Oh, where are from?  You reach for the seatbelt like, what are doing? Where are from? know,

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stuff like that. Like, they've improved now. Their safety stuff has become a bit better.

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But yeah, that was definitely the case. So just like little things, little things that you

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won't pick up on. Even just how big people greet each other. I just said, how are you doing?

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Something like that. And they were like, oh, where are from? And I'm Iraqi Arabic, but they

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don't say it like that anymore. It's just fascinating. It is fascinating. So you've mentioned you

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speak... Okay. So you speak Arabic. Was that a big deal for your parents for you to like

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speak the language? Are you pretty fluent? Yeah. Yeah. Because if they had done the whole thing

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of like, no, we're in England now. We would have only spoken English. Whereas now I'm a

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hundred percent fluent in English and I'm let's say 70, 80 % fluent in Arabic, um, which has

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actually improved recently. So it used to be a bit more like shaky. Um, like, know, like

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kind of pulling up the vocab and remembering the right words. way of saying it. Yeah, it's

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it's definitely better. Yeah. So your mother tongue at home because you get to retain both

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and stay bilingual, which is awesome. Yeah, I love that. I think it's I think sometimes

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parents do a disservice when they don't allow their kids. I understand the reasoning behind

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this one to kind of assimilate and all that. But I think it it's harder for the children

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in the future when they maybe come across people who are from the same country and they're like,

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wait, you don't speak this language. That's interesting. You know, so that's great. OK,

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very cool.  And I want to start getting  into  some of the things you've talked about in

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your book.  And one of the things that jumped out at me was  you talked about  how  the two

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main jobs  that  Iraqis and most immigrant parents really...  consider for their kids as good

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jobs are like doctor and engineer and that your parents actually baked you like a doctor cake

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when you were one year old, which I've never heard of. But that's that seems yeah, like

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extreme. They wanted you to have a prestigious career. Yeah. So yeah, could you talk about

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maybe kind of the pressure that you had on you to become a doctor or at least do one of those

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two jobs and how you ended up deciding not to go in that direction? Sure, yeah. So I think

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technically it was my parents explained that it was actually my grandfather who did it.

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It's not like a typical thing. think it's just an unusual thing that we did. It's not like

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this is in Iraqi culture. I don't know. But I think it's normal to say, oh, you're going

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to grow up and be a doctor. Like that was normal. That was like, you know, it's just, I think

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it's normal even in like Western society to kind of,  just if you just go back a few generations,

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was normal to do stuff like that. Like it was just like nowadays we will have maybe too much

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of an emphasis on like, choose your own fate,  know, pick your own thing. Follow your dreams.

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Maybe the pendulum swung too far now. But  I'm going to be fair to my parents and say

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they actually didn't put any pressure on me to be honest, no direct. It was just incepted

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into my mind. And then I chose to be a doctor.  It was like, I didn't feel any actual pressure,

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but I think it was all, you know, it was all like unsaid and it was all like  little nudges

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maybe. But they were, my parents have been very sweet and very  like giving us the freedom

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to do whatever, but they were shocked. So what happened is  I was always good at science at

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school. And then, uh, and I just, I just didn't feel like I didn't have enough direction in

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terms of career. I was the eldest. So even in terms of my cousins and stuff, I was the eldest.

23:46 → 23:51
So kind of had nobody to sort of mentor me, guide me into that whole. career thing and

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my parents obviously haven't been through that because they just came here as immigrants.

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didn't go to university  in that same way here. And so I just didn't have enough support to

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make that decision. I didn't know what to choose. And in the UK, you have to choose much earlier

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than in the US.  In the US, you can kind of go to college, like university, and then you

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kind of decide what your major is later or something.  We don't have that. You choose the subject

24:15 → 24:24
at... 18, not even at 18, at like 17, you have to kind of apply. So, um, so I didn't know

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what to choose. And I was like, Oh, I guess I'm good at science and saving people's lives

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is great. let me be a doctor. Um, the problem is I decided that too late and didn't get the

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relevant experience that you need, the extracurriculars and stuff like that. Um, so, uh, so in the

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UK, you can go straight to medicine. You guys have a different system where it's pre-med.

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So I essentially went to what is essentially pre-med.  Um, and then six months into that,

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I just dropped out and said, wait, this isn't for me. I don't want a life of just like doctors,

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hospitals.  I noticed that doctors lives are very insular and I wanted to learn more about

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the world.  Um, and the exams were coming up and I wasn't studying.  So dropped out  and

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they were shocked.  Um,  but, and I felt very directionless at the time  and I just didn't

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know what to choose and all do. And I decided to do economics because I didn't know what

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it was and it sounded interesting. And I kind of looked it up and it says, there's something

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about allocating resources efficiently in society. And I was like, Ooh,  and it's about money

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and stuff like that. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. And I specifically chose a

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university that focuses on developing countries. So it has like a focus on middle East, China,

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Asia, Africa, that kind of thing.  So, um,  I applied for that university and I didn't

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have any backups. Like I didn't like have any plan B. was like, I want to go to so it's called

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so as university, the school of Oriental and African studies,  which is essentially it was

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set up, I think in the  1920s or thirties to manage the British empire. So it was actually

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like this whole school of Oriental and African studies.  And I decided I want to do economics

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there. It was quite, it's a good university for economics. And, um,  and I applied, you

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know, the deadline was like,  beginning of the year. And I remember I applied in like May

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or June.  So way past the deadline because I dropped out of university. And then I had like,

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was one grade short, but I decided to, to, to, you know,  what's the right phrase to  kind

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of sneak or talk my way in.  Yeah. I looked up the undergraduate admissions tutor and I'm

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kind of old. So this is before everybody had their picture on the internet, but he did.

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He had this fuzzy pixelated picture. I found it on the website  and it said his office hours,

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which is for students, not for anyone, but I just showed up  and I convinced him and I convinced

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him that I want to get in and why I want to get in and I want to help Iraq and all these

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things. I prepared this little spiel and it worked and I got in  and, um, and then I had

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another dilemma of what do I do after doing economics?  Because typically the people work

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in  what's the equivalent of Wall Street here in the UK, which is it's called the city of

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London. It's where all the banks and the investment firms and hedge funds and all of that stuff

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is.  And it didn't appeal to me. And so  I went down this whole other path of like, when I

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graduated, I kind of didn't get a job. just, I just waited  and kind of explored what I

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might do. And then I found this online course,  which was all about setting up a freedom business.

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And it was kind of inspired by the Tim Ferriss' four hour work week. If you guys are familiar

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with that. And yeah, I just took the plunge. was $2,000 at the time, which was a hell of

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a lot of money for me. Think about this. This is 2012. So this is like before inflation.

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It was like five grand. And I just went for it. And it was tough, but I got there in the

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end and I just carved my own path. It was all because I didn't want to have a job. I didn't

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want a boss. I didn't want to... I saw working for a bank or something like that, a way to

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make rich people richer and no work-life balance. And I didn't want that. And that's essentially

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what motivated me. So yeah, that was my kind of journey. was like, I didn't want to be a

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doctor anymore. And then I just kind of mess, you know, just kind of floundered and figured

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things out and just kept working at it and follow, know, carve my own path in that way. I love

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this. now we're there now in 2025 it's been 11 years now since I've had a proper job and

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a proper boss. It feels good. Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I know touching on parts of

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the book that we read.  So a few things that you mentioned there that really stood out is,

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I know in the book you mentioned,  Dr. Engineer were the two,  we have the three.  Dr. Teacher

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Lawyer, no, Dr. Engineer Lawyer. Though I think mom would sometimes say Dr. Teacher Lawyer

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because her mother was a teacher in Jamaica. So those are the top three.   For her and I

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love that you you took the course  on how to start your own business then like that was

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really your Initial investment what kind of stands out to me there is that even though

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you know you mentioned like they really know what you wanted to do you kind of floundering

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Actually have a minor in economics. I understand that interest in like wanting to learn about

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money and stuff like that  like  you still knew it sounds like What you did not want to

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do? I guess, which isn't even though you weren't like quite sure what you did. Yeah, you were

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like, I know I don't want to work for a boss like I want to work for myself and kind of

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pave my own path. So that's I find that to be a very interesting parallel just to kind of

29:43 → 29:48
a backtrack a little bit. How did for lack of better term, breaking the news to your parents

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when you told them you were like dropping out of med school and that you didn't have a plan,

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were they supportive? How did they react? Just kind of curious. No. No, actually it's now

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all a blur. Like I don't remember at the moment I told them, like it's all like now just one

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big blur. I remember I was kind of semi depressed because I was just felt directionless. I was

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kind of like just feeling quite low and cause I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.

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Um, and yeah, I just had a little bit angst. It was like, I had a lot of my teenage angst

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and stuff like a bit late, but although that wasn't, that was like 18, but yeah, I kind

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of feel like I had a lot of that teenage angst, but a little bit late. had it like a college.

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14, 15. I had it when I was like 18, 19. So I feel like that's kind of what I went through.

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You know, I just wanted to touch on the whole literally, it's like either doctor or engineer

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in Iraqi culture. And that's very common in kind of developing countries to have like those

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two. Well, even more interesting I found is that they didn't even choose what they become.

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It was based on their grades. So if they were top grades, they'd become a doctor. If it was

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second, it was engineer. If it was third, I don't know  what. But like, yeah, it's so interesting

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how, again, taking that whole, you know, we have this whole thing about choice and you

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make your own choice and you call it, what do you like and what's your passion? I wasn't

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even a consideration. It was like, what's your grades? Okay, you're a doctor, next.  Yeah,

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that's so true. I mean, because my mother has actually said that before. She's like, I feel

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like sometimes you... Kids in America have too much choice. many. When I was in Jamaica, we

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didn't have all those choices. I'm like, oh, well, you know, she said that a lot to us.

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Like, you guys don't know what to do because you have too many choices. it be a negative.

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Yeah, can be a negative. There's that whole thing about the paradox of choice. It's not

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necessarily a positive thing. can get overwhelmed with kind of decision fatigue or just kind

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of not with all the... I think there was a thing about like... They did this experiment where

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it was like a farmer's market and they had different, different types of jams, like, you know, like

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jellies, jams. And they had like, I think they did an experiment where they had like five

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different flavors and another one they'd had like 20. And they had less sales when there

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was more flavors  because people will just be like, uh, and then just choose one. It was

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just too many choices. Whereas if you have five, it's kind of more clear.  And so there really

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is such a thing as para, you know,  being it's called the paradox of choice. It's just. how

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more choices not necessarily better. It's a skill to narrow your choices down as well.

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Yeah. Yes, it's so true. And I used to think, you know, because  my mom would say something

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like, oh, yeah, I always wanted to learn how to play piano. But like, you know, I was so

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focused on  going into medicine and stuff. And I used to think like, oh, that's so sad that

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like she didn't have those choices. You know, she had to do this. Like she had. But then

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as I became an adult and I was also not sure about what I wanted to do with my life for

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a very long time.   I was like, oh no, I see how this is a problem. Having too many choices.

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I don't know what to do.  Yeah.  Yeah.  And it's also framed a little bit. Look, and there's

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nothing wrong with this. mean, really my choices were very much based on  what I wanted. Like

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it was based, it was kind of a selfish, not in a negative, but you know, it's a self-centered

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choice. It's like, what do I want to do with my life? What do I to choose? And I feel like

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that can be too much in Western culture. there isn't enough about duty and about like helping

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others and about what people expect of you. And maybe it is pendulum swinging too far.

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And I think there needs to be some kind of happy medium because I think too much of it is just

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about like, what's in it for me? And even in relationships, like what am I getting out of

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this? If you look at traditional cultures, they don't see it that way. They see it as like

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duties and responsibilities. What people want and what expectations are and that can be,

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know, expectations can be a negative thing too. So Yeah, I just think, you know, we can't go

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too far the other way. Absolutely. Yeah, so interesting. I found that like in the Jamaican

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culture, I'm not sure if it's the same Iraqi culture, but family like taking care of others

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and like, you know, knowing your neighbors and stuff is a big deal. Whereas here it's very

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much. Yeah. Well, to think of the Janet Jackson song. What have you done for me lately? Very

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much sometimes is kind of how we operate. And so, yeah, that's something that's kind of different

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or it's like, oh, yeah, well, you help out this person because you should kind of thing.  So,

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yeah, that's very interesting.  like you said, it is a matter of kind of finding that happy

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medium because something that we do here a lot with immigrants moving usually to a  Western

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country is they're moving for opportunities, right? They're moving to give their kids maybe

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more opportunities.  And that kind of leads me to another thing that you mentioned in your

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book is that  you mentioned that your unfair advantage or one of your unfair advantages

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is that your parents decided to move. from Baghdad to the UK, can you kind of explain what you

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mean by that being an unfair advantage? Because I think maybe people wouldn't think of it that

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way. Yeah, mean, a lot of where I am today is because of, just as an example, a lot of where

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I am today is because of... I mean, this is just a small, just one small thing that I was

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zooming in on. Like there's so many different things to be grateful for and which are unfair

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advantages. But one tiny thing... is that I speak English with a native British London

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accent. Like I  do keynote speaking, I do paid public speaking.  And essentially that,  it

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just wouldn't have worked as well if I was there with a thick immigrant accent. just  probably

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would have been harder. The same with like pitching, the same with like,  you know, when I'm trying

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to get business, trying to get clients, again, if I sound educated, I sound native.  In America,

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even more so because of that British accent. We love a good British accent.  It sounds somehow

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smarter. does. You could like be insulting us. like, so beautiful.  There  you go.  So it's

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that's just one tiny aspect of it, let alone all the opportunities, let alone the fact that

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in the 90s, there were all these sanctions placed on Iraq, which was purportedly to punish Saddam

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Hussein. But who actually got punished? It's not like he got hungry. It's just actual people

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and children were hungry.  They asked, there's a clip and you can find it. And I don't remember

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her exact position, some kind of  US government, I don't know, Secretary of State or something.

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I don't know what her position is. Madeleine Albright. Oh, I think the UN ambassador for

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the US, something like that. And they asked her point blank, like  a million kids have

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died because of these sanctions. Was that worth it? And she's like, yeah, it was worth it.

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This is an American ambassador. And it's just disgusting because you like that's what they

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went through in Iraq. And I would have lived through that myself.  Right. I would have lived

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through. And like I said, this is a rich country. This isn't a poor country. And then suddenly

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they're like having  malnutrition, you know, in the mid nineties because of these sanctions,

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which was supposed to be punishing Saddam. So it's,  I would have lived through that. Right.

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Um, there's so much, there's so much that I would have been affected by. Um, but Hey, everything,

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you know, there's so much to be grateful for. if I was, if I was there and if I managed to

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somehow, you know,  I do believe in like,  like that butterfly effect, like one small change

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in your past could have, have really huge changes. And so. Yeah. I mean, I'm a British  now I

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could  traveling is easy for me getting a visa is not difficult coming to the U S is not difficult.

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Um, yeah, I mean, there's so much. benefits. And so, yeah, it is a big unfair advantage

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of mine that my parents decided to leave when they did. Yeah.  Yeah. I know it reminds me

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of when you share the story of like the impoverished  Filipino girl and kind of the impact  that

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it had on you when you were visiting  Manila. And you mentioned how like,  you know, who

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knows  what could have happened if your parents never like, you know, left Iraq.  And I think

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like. What until I read your book I would never have identified it this way like literally

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now whenever this is the Such a positive impacts from reading the book. It's like I'm always

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now identifying like what is an unfair advantage I never called it that but I was like, oh like

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and I remember when I was describing to my sister about it She's like what is this like? Oh like

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everyone has them It's not a lot of times you think it's just your money you're this economic

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status and those things do play a factor But everyone has it in some capacity and I think

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for me how I used to kind of call it was like this, I have this, what I like to dub innate

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indebtedness and how that has, which means it's kind of how it's correlated to me recognizing

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like how me being a child of immigrants from Jamaica, which is a poor country, and my parents

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leaving when they did and us being born here, like how that is our unfair advantage and how,

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even though sometimes I feel like, gosh, mom and dad are, mom so tough on us and always

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pushing us and blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, We had a better life because of because

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of that and that and I feel sometimes the struggle between I want to make them proud, right? Like

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they did so much to me. But then, like, I also want to not feel like I'm ball and chain  to

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what they expect of me. So,  yeah, it's just been it's an interesting parallel. So I just

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I find that like, yeah, I'm always trying to identify these these unfair advantages in my

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life now. But I do struggle with like this innate indebtedness that I feel with them. So  yeah.

39:36 → 39:40
Anyway, well, think we need to all, I think that's the healthy way to live and the health

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way to live life is with an innate indebtedness  because that's just another way of saying

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gratitude. Yeah. Yeah. And think gratitude is very important. And,  you know, that's the,

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a word, using a phrase like indebtedness  nowadays with modern thinking, because it's become so

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secular and so lacking in, in that, like, if you look at  all older texts and thinkers,

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they'll always be talking about the providence of God. They'll always be talking about the

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blessings. always, because that's how, that's like a way of mental, having mental fitness

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and a way of feeling spiritually sound and spiritually good and grounded is to have a feeling of indebtedness.

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In Islam, we're taught to be indebted to our parents  and we're taught to be, to really

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value them, to really  look after them. It's like, it's such an important thing.  And it's

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said that even if they're, I mean, there are bad parents, right? There are people who have

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been really bad parents.  And even if they've been awful  and abusive and, know, God forbid,

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all these terrible things,  there's a thing about not cutting them off,  even if they're

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that bad.  Even if like they've literally traumatized your childhood, let's say.  It's like you have

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to stay in touch. You have to ask about them.  And look, you do what you can, right? Like,

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but even if they're bad people, it's just good to an extreme and say that  you don't cut them

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off. And it's just an important part of like that kind of familial bonds  and cohesion and

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community.  it starts from family.  And yeah, so that indebtedness is like an indebtedness

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to  parents and indefiniteness to God and indefiniteness to teachers. Anybody that teaches you anything,

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you have to respect them. It's just, this is such important stuff. And I think I love that

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you said that. just thought I'll just mention it. Yeah, thank you. I think, yeah, that's,

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we're very big on respecting our elders and stuff. And sometimes, I don't know, I just

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feel like an old grandma. Sometimes I see some of these kids telling their parents like, shut

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up, mom, and do it. And I was like, oh my gosh, if I ever did, first of I'd never think to

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do that. But like, you know, we grew up in a household where we had to say yes, mom. Yes,

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dad, like very respectful. I think sometimes that's losing it a little bit today's culture.

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And you're in the South where they have that bit more in the US  where they have like, yes,

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sir. Yes, ma'am. And all that kind of stuff. Um,  and yeah, I'm the same. when I see on

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TV or just some white kids that I know who will tell their moms to shut up, I'll be like, what?

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is like  the world.  How the hell did you say that? We get beaten for that.  Like we would

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never, like you said, we would never think of saying that. So it's crazy. Yeah.  Yeah. And

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I feel like that might be even part of the unfair advantage is kind of some of the values that

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you get from growing up with immigrant parents, maybe.  I don't know. Just a thought is that,

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yeah, because if you had just grown up in,  like in your case, British culture the whole

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time, you maybe wouldn't have that mindset of of feeling indebted to  your family and to

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people who teach you and things like that  in the same way that you do now having those values

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kind of instilled in you. And there's value in both because there's a lot of things in

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like we've touched on individualism and we touched a little bit on the whole collectivist or community

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driven mindset where it's based on duties based on responsibilities based on, looking after

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one another. And, um, but also the, you know, my path has been in that kind of individualistic

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way going, no, I'm not doing that. I'm doing this. I'm going to do my own thing. And so,

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You  you have to get the best of  what you can from both, you know, take what's  valuable,

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take what's useful, try and find a good middle ground.  It's also bad to just kind of sacrifice.

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To an extent, it depends. Sometimes it's worth. So I really believe that sometimes it's worth

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sacrificing happiness for a greater cause.  But sometimes it's not for a greater cause.

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Sometimes it's just like some kind of expectations or some kind of things which aren't actually

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important. So yeah, I guess I'm just trying to say that one small example is that  in my

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culture,  everyone stays living with their parents until they're married. That's just how it works.

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No one moves out.  And by the way, that's changing as well for like Jen,  even millennials and

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Gen Z, they're staying living with their parents, even like white kids. And the reason for that

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is property prices. It's just too insane. So now it's become more normal. But it used to

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be the case, especially like a few decades ago, that they would literally, I mean, I used to

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watch the Simpsons when I was younger and they used to say, when you're 18, I'm kicking you

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out. I said, what? Like, that's so weird. Like, you say that to a bar. And that was a thing

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in like white culture, like in British culture, when they're 16, they start charging their

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kids rent. Like this used to be the case. Like they used to their kids rent when they're 18,

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you need to get out. It was very much a case of independence. Um, it's different. So, so

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what am I trying to say is that it was very normal for me to stay at home after university

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and try and figure out my business. And I was able to live rent free, mortgage free  in,

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London, one of the  most expensive cities in the world and be able to get clients from there

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because of that. That's again, that's just one small thing.  And again, that's become more

45:05 → 45:09
normal because of property prices. So now it's become very normal, but it wasn't the case.

45:09 → 45:15
So yeah, pros and cons. don't know. Like, Look, now I've recently become a parent. have a two

45:15 → 45:20
year old and a one year old now.  And I see how difficult parenthood is  when it comes

45:20 → 45:26
to, when you look at nuclear families. Nuclear families is a relatively recent phenomenon

45:26 → 45:32
and it's a very Western phenomenon, which is meaning just  two parents and their kids. And

45:32 → 45:37
that's it. That's the household. It used to be like grandparents and uncles and aunts and

45:37 → 45:41
cousins all live nearby and they share and come in and out. And you know, that whole thing

45:41 → 45:45
of it takes a village to raise a child.  That's what makes people have more children. It becomes

45:45 → 45:50
so much better. And now everyone's struggling with just one or two. They're like, it used

45:50 → 45:55
to be the dads were completely hands off.  know, that's not necessarily a good thing,  but it

45:55 → 45:59
feels like even when the dads were completely hands off, the moms were coping a lot better.

45:59 → 46:04
Now the dads are like half involved  and they're still, both of them can't cope and it's crazy.

46:04 → 46:08
So I'm seeing that with other parents, friends of mine, and I'm seeing it with myself.  Yeah.

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I just wanted to mention again that all ties into this difference of East versus West. And

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it's not really East. It's just like everywhere else. There's a researcher, I've forgotten

46:19 → 46:26
his name now, but there's a book called WEIRD. W-E-I-R-D. And it stands for Western Educated

46:26 → 46:32
Industrialized Something Developed. I don't know if you've come across this. And the idea

46:32 → 46:43
behind it is that how different Western society, modern Western society is. a weird book,  Western...

46:44 → 46:48
Yeah, the weirdest people in the world is what it's called. Oh, okay. I'll write that down.

46:48 → 46:54
How the West... Hold on. What's the subtitle? How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar

46:54 → 47:00
and Particularly Prosperous.  By Joseph Henrich. And essentially, and  one of the takeaways

47:00 → 47:04
from it, there's so many, like this all touches on like culture and stuff. And that's why you'll

47:04 → 47:10
find like,  you know, whether there is Chinese culture... Indian culture, Arab culture, or

47:10 → 47:14
like Nigerian culture, you know, like  all these different cultures that have so much in Latin

47:14 → 47:20
American culture, they have so much in common versus like English or  white American or,

47:20 → 47:25
know, and it's because of this.  and one of the, one of the takeaways, by the way, this

47:25 → 47:30
is a little bit off topic, but even all this, all the studies that they do is usually on

47:30 → 47:35
college students.  And then they get all the results of these studies. And sometimes they

47:35 → 47:39
fake the results, et cetera. That's another topic. But sometimes they get the results of

47:39 → 47:44
these studies and say, this is just how humans are. And actually, no, this is how these humans

47:44 → 47:52
are. And they're weird. They're not the typical humans.  college students in the US is not

47:52 → 47:58
the average human being in the world. And so, yeah,  it's a very interesting perspective.

47:58 → 48:01
And I'm going to dive more into that because I find this cultural different stuff. very

48:01 → 48:06
fascinating. Yeah. Because I've always noticed if you see like funny reels or TikToks or something

48:06 → 48:13
about like,  oh, Jamaican parents are like,  Asian parents are like, guess what? They're

48:13 → 48:19
all the same. Yeah, it's true. It's true. true. There's Jamaican or Arab or Chinese.  They're

48:19 → 48:24
all the same. The only ones that are different is just basically white people. Yes. They're

48:24 → 48:30
the outlier culture.  But there's something,  this isn't just a criticism of absolutely

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not because look, we've become prosperous  and we've learned things by moving into countries

48:35 → 48:39
where that's the dominant culture.  so  again, we have to pick what's best out of this and

48:39 → 48:43
out of that. And I think that's really important. But one of the biggest problems is loneliness

48:43 → 48:51
in  white culture. Loneliness is super sad. And I think more needs to be done about community,

48:51 → 48:56
parenting, loneliness, mental health, everybody's on antidepressants. There's some issues. There

48:56 → 49:02
are some real issues going on guys. So Yeah, that's little rant about the weird Western

49:02 → 49:06
culture. We see it and we see the differences. Oh, man, that could be a whole other conversation.

49:07 → 49:11
That was great. I wrote down the name of the book. I love everything about that. Yeah, there's

49:11 → 49:17
so much in there. Yeah, we don't want to take up that much of your time, but that's a lot

49:17 → 49:23
to dig into. That was great. But since we're on the topic of kind of differences in cultures,

49:23 → 49:27
I don't even know if you can fully answer this question, but I just wanted to ask it since

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you're kind of our first non-American guest,  and I  have a feeling you know enough about

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American culture.  Just what do you think are some of maybe the major differences between

49:40 → 49:47
being a child of immigrants in the US versus in the UK? Like, you think, have you perceived

49:47 → 49:52
any differences? do you think? Good question. Okay, so again, this is not very well known

49:52 → 49:58
in the US, but like, So Europe and the UK and this part of the world, it's a smaller place.

49:59 → 50:05
It's a much more geographically much smaller place. Like in the US, it's like having a six

50:05 → 50:09
hour road trip is completely normal. Yeah. We're just going on a road trip. the UK, it's like,

50:09 → 50:15
what? Where are going? This is crazy. Like, it's not even built. Like, I mean, there are

50:15 → 50:20
some highways and stuff, right? Like, for example, I've been to the Scotland only, I think only

50:20 → 50:24
once in my life, which is sad. I want to go by the way. I want to go more often, but the

50:24 → 50:28
weather is a bit, you have to pick like the middle of summer to make it fun.  But I've

50:28 → 50:32
only been to Scotland once and guess what? It's only a six hour drive from London to go to

50:32 → 50:39
like Edinburgh or Glasgow. So anyway, geographically it's so much  more dense. Everything's smaller

50:39 → 50:45
and communities are much closer together. So when immigrant communities are in the UK, they're

50:45 → 50:49
much closer to other, first of all, UK is much more diverse. Again, that's largely because

50:49 → 50:57
of  the British empire. So it's much more diverse  and therefore you have more immigrants to

50:57 → 51:03
mix with, especially in the major cities, et cetera. So that's one difference. In the U.S.,

51:03 → 51:08
there are some pockets of that. We've mentioned New York, Miami has that a little bit.  And

51:08 → 51:14
different pockets, there are parts of LA which are very like Persian, let's say.  Detroit,

51:14 → 51:18
Michigan, kind of, there's a city there called Dearborn, which is full of Arabs. There's a

51:18 → 51:23
lot of Iraqis, Lebanese in Dearborn, Michigan. But in general, people are more spread out.

51:23 → 51:28
People are more spread out and therefore they kind of become more Americanized just as a

51:28 → 51:36
generality. That's number one difference in immigrants that  I see. Number two is just

51:36 → 51:40
the difference between different,  like British and American culture. And it's not just British,

51:40 → 51:46
it's old world versus new world. So essentially let's say American  Canada to an extent versus

51:46 → 51:54
like  Europe, Middle East, Asia, which is that. And this is a positive. America is much more

51:54 → 52:01
of a optimistic place. America is much more of a you can do it too place. America is much

52:01 → 52:06
more competitive. Here are the negatives now. So those are the positives. The negatives,

52:06 → 52:13
and also you can really rise up in America. There really is a sense of like social mobility

52:13 → 52:16
upwards, particularly when you're in the middle. I think when you're on the bottom 20%, it's

52:16 → 52:20
actually really hard to rise up. You're kind of stuck. In America, I've seen... I gave a

52:20 → 52:25
Ted talk about this actually, part of  the stats in the Ted talk is actually harder to go from

52:25 → 52:30
the bottom 20 % to the top 20 % in the US compared to Europe, where you think that it's much more

52:30 → 52:36
like less meritocratic, but actually it's harder. But I think from the middle, if you're somewhere

52:36 → 52:39
in the middle of the socioeconomic ladder in the US and you want to get to the top, it's

52:39 → 52:46
a lot easier and it's hard work,  but it's much more doable. Incomes are a lot higher,  quality

52:46 → 52:50
of life, you your houses are bigger. you just have more space. The highways are bigger, your

52:50 → 52:54
cars are bigger. It's like Texas. Like, you how you guys feel about Texas? We feel that

52:54 → 53:02
about the whole of Europe.  So those are the kind of differences.  Essentially  in the UK,

53:03 → 53:08
self-improvement and self-development is very much like, it's not really looked at as like,

53:08 → 53:13
oh, that guy's rich. Well, I can be rich too. It's not looked at. That's not the general

53:13 → 53:18
culture. The general culture is like, Oh, that lucky bastard. That's the general culture.

53:18 → 53:24
That's literally how British people talk.  Oh, lucky  them. Because why? Because there's a

53:24 → 53:28
lot of inherited wealth here. a of like that kind of...  There's a reason why people think

53:28 → 53:33
of it more as luck.  In the US, you also have lot of inherited wealth, but the mindset is

53:33 → 53:40
still like,  know, self-made, go get them, American dream, et cetera.  So those are the major differences

53:40 → 53:47
that I see.  Oh, the other big, difference is  healthcare. Being free is huge difference.

53:47 → 53:53
Work-life balance is a huge, huge difference. You work a lot harder in the US, you have less

53:53 → 54:00
paid time off, less vacation and less everything.  But yeah, but then customer service is a lot

54:00 → 54:08
better. often live, are smileier.  Pros and cons.  Before I forget, because I wanted to

54:08 → 54:14
get back, when we were talking about kind of race in the US and all of that,  This is  a

54:14 → 54:19
curiosity of mine because again, you're your first non-American guest in the US We have

54:20 → 54:25
like when we take standardized tests from when we're little kids We have to decide like in

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on the test like you have to the first questions is like what race are you and so and you have

54:29 → 54:36
like boxes to check like black  black non-hispanic Hispanic Why? Yeah, all these. And yeah, so

54:36 → 54:41
you literally have to check a box when you're a little kid of what you are, because they

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apparently historically they've used it because of the racial inequities and they're trying.

54:46 → 54:51
It's trying to correct it with that, I guess. So they try to keep track of it. Is that does

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that exist at all in the UK? It does. They do tend to keep records. We don't have it at beginning

54:57 → 55:02
of every test and it's often optional, but we do have it in lot of forms where it will say

55:02 → 55:07
what ethnicity are you? And then it will be, yeah, it will be like these boxes. And then

55:07 → 55:12
I'll always be like, what am I Asian other?  I'm always like, I don't know what Arab is

55:12 → 55:17
because technically we are Asian. But if I put Asian, they think that's Indian or Pakistani

55:17 → 55:23
or something like that. In the U S Asian means East Asian  and the word Oriental has like

55:23 → 55:28
got this kind of weird pejorative thing. Whereas in the UK it's normal to say Oriental.  I mean,

55:28 → 55:31
it literally just means Eastern. don't know. You know, some things just start to develop

55:31 → 55:34
a pejorative character where it becomes a bit rude to use it where it's like. doesn't mean

55:34 → 55:39
anything bad.  Yeah, I mean, this whole thing of categorization is really, really interesting

55:39 → 55:45
and really funny. was listening to a nice his this is just an interesting thing I'll share

55:45 → 55:50
with you as well. I  was listening to an interesting history podcast and he was talking they were

55:50 → 55:55
talking about Aristotle or one of the  ancient Greek philosophers and they're like, he's the

55:55 → 56:00
the most famous Western philosopher and I was like, okay, what makes him Western? Okay, why

56:00 → 56:06
is he Western? He's Greek people pretty much look like Arabs.  They're literally next door.

56:06 → 56:13
because they just create these artificial like boundaries of like,  Greece is in Europe. And

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then like, you know, like  what's close to like Lebanon  is, in the middle East. And it's like,

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they're literally like, I don't know how long of a boat ride from each other. They look exactly

56:24 → 56:28
the same. They have the same kind of Mediterranean culture where they'll have olive oil and they'll

56:28 → 56:34
have flatbread and I'll have like, you know, like yogurt. dips and they'll have yogurt drinks.

56:34 → 56:41
It's the same. mean, so it's,  um, it's this whole East versus West stuff, which is like,

56:41 → 56:46
uh, you know, the film 300 tries to make the,  the battle between the ancient Greeks and

56:46 → 56:51
the ancient Persians as being an East versus West thing. And the reality is actually their

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cultures were pretty similar. Their ethnicities were free. They'd get along quite well. There

56:56 → 57:01
was this guy on YouTube who's this,  uh, musicologist. He really understands ancient music and he

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can recreate. somehow he recreates like ancient Roman music or ancient Greek music or something

57:06 → 57:13
else like that. And, then he has this video essay where he talks about like  Greek music,

57:13 → 57:18
even modern day. He's like,  I get this question a lot. Why does Greek music sound like Arabic

57:18 → 57:21
music? And he's like, you guys realize that they're literally next. Like, why does it sound

57:21 → 57:25
so Oriental? Why does it sound so Eastern? It's like, they are in the East. They're in the

57:25 → 57:30
Eastern Mediterranean. But it's because we think of it as like, you know, it was this decision

57:30 → 57:34
made. in the Renaissance, think, where they were like, okay, we're going to base our culture

57:34 → 57:39
on ancient Greeks and ancient Romans.  But the reality is like Germans and Brits and, you

57:39 → 57:44
know, these Northern Europeans who would, for example, drink beer and eat butter were quite

57:44 → 57:49
different to the Southern Europeans who drink wine and have olive oil. Their cultures are

57:49 → 57:53
completely different. But then they made it like Europe is this one thing.  And then they

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made it like these Mediterranean, like Southern Europeans are different to like Middle Easterners

57:58 → 58:02
and different to North Africaners. Actually, they're very well connected because of the

58:02 → 58:07
Mediterranean. So my point here is a lot of these distinctions and categorizations and

58:07 → 58:13
boxes  just have some political motive, historical political motives, and it's just complete nonsense.

58:13 → 58:19
yeah, like Aristotle would have looked a lot more like me than he would like any  English,

58:19 → 58:25
British guy or German guy. They look completely different.  There was this joke about how ancient

58:25 → 58:30
Romans, if they were pretending to be Jewish, like from the land, you know, Palestine land,

58:30 → 58:35
now or Judeo or whatever it was called back in ancient Jewish time, ancient Roman times,

58:35 → 58:40
all they had to do is like wear different things. think they used to pierce their ears  and,

58:40 → 58:45
and funnily enough get, uh, get circumcised. And that's how they can pretend to be Jewish

58:45 → 58:52
because they all look the same.  So  in America, in the beginning, white had this specific thing

58:52 → 58:56
and then Irish didn't count as white and Italian didn't count as white. And then slowly they

58:56 → 59:01
had to include them. And then  it's just,  it's, it's all a funny. weird game of categories

59:01 → 59:08
and boxes and labels. And really it's all one mishmash and kind of hard to define.  And yeah,

59:08 → 59:18
it's all a bit of a nonsense.  All  right. Yeah. Let's go to our kind of lighter  questions

59:18 → 59:24
here. That was a very... I love it. Yeah. get very interesting. Be respectful of your time.

59:24 → 59:28
Yeah. Be respectful of your time. Although we have a lot we could talk about with that.

59:28 → 59:35
So  we'll start off, we like to start off by asking about food.  So do you have any favorite

59:35 → 59:42
kind of Iraqi dishes that you'd like to share with us?  Yeah, sure.  Yeah, Iraq is really

59:42 → 59:48
interesting. So Iraq is actually, doesn't have any natural borders. Iraq was always being

59:48 → 59:54
invaded from somewhere.  So originally, if we go to ancient times, it was their own civilizations

59:54 → 1:00:00
and the kind of the native civilizations.  And then You get an ancient Persia is right near

1:00:00 → 1:00:06
door next door, which is basically modern day Iran. They have such an old culture and old

1:00:06 → 1:00:11
civilization. It's been going on for thousands of years and that's like right next door. So

1:00:11 → 1:00:16
that had a lot of influence on it. And then you have the ancient Greeks. So Alexander the

1:00:16 → 1:00:21
great and et cetera, they kind of came all the way down there and became Hellenized, meaning

1:00:21 → 1:00:27
became like Greeks. Hence why I said there's not much difference because it's not far.

1:00:27 → 1:00:33
Later on, it became the Ottomans who were essentially the Turks who came from Central Asia originally,

1:00:33 → 1:00:40
then  kind of mixed in with the Greeks that lived on Anatolia, which became so essentially

1:00:40 → 1:00:45
again, you have like kind of ethnic Greeks, ethnic Turks, ethnic Persians, then you had

1:00:45 → 1:00:50
the Arabs that came in. And so as you see, Iraq doesn't actually have any like mountains on

1:00:50 → 1:00:55
the edge. In the North, we have some mountains, but people just cross into the land. So our

1:00:55 → 1:01:00
food. also reflects that.  There's food from all different cultures. There's stuff like

1:01:00 → 1:01:06
that's like kind of Greek, Ottoman, Turkish. There's stuff that's Persian.  There's stuff

1:01:06 → 1:01:10
that's kind of local to the land as well, which is like based on the two rivers, which is like

1:01:10 → 1:01:15
river fish that they would make. So I'll share some dishes with you. One of the most, the

1:01:15 → 1:01:20
most famous dish is actually a fish dish in Iraq, where it's like grilled fish made in

1:01:20 → 1:01:24
a very special way. They would kind of stand up the fish around the fire, but not on top

1:01:24 → 1:01:29
of a fire, around a fire. Um, and it's this carp from the river and that's called Simec

1:01:29 → 1:01:34
Mezguf, is Mezguf. It's like a grilled fish. Essentially.  That one's delicious. It's not

1:01:34 → 1:01:39
my favorite, but it's  pretty good. It's really good. Some nice flavors.  use a lot of pomegranate

1:01:39 → 1:01:44
molasses. So pomegranates are quite native to Middle East, Persia, that kind of side, uh,

1:01:44 → 1:01:50
Turkey.  Um, then you have kebabs. So you have kebabs all over the Middle East and stuff.

1:01:50 → 1:01:53
And the Iraqi kebab is very good. It's kind of a, a bit more of a rich, a bit more of a

1:01:53 → 1:02:00
fatty lamb kebab.  You do have the kind of what in the U S is more famous as gyro. I can Greek.

1:02:01 → 1:02:06
Yeah. Um, but actually I think it was kind of Turkish and then the Greeks took it on cause

1:02:06 → 1:02:12
they were part of the Ottoman empire, et cetera. You also have stuffed vine leaves. So, so gyro,

1:02:12 → 1:02:17
yeah, is just meat on a spit meat, meat or chicken on a spit, which is always really nice. Um,

1:02:17 → 1:02:23
then you have like stuffed vine leaves. So get these great please. the.  And then  you put

1:02:23 → 1:02:29
rice inside. so rice has always been part of Iraqi culture.  So we have the Basmati rice,

1:02:29 → 1:02:34
the sort of the same ones that Indians and Pakistanis have. Okay. Or Persians. Like it's very, very

1:02:34 → 1:02:37
similar to Persian rice. And then again, that's because we had marshlands in the South because

1:02:37 → 1:02:42
you need a lot of water to make rice. So just like they have in the Far East, but ours is

1:02:42 → 1:02:47
not the sticky variety. So the typical Iraqi foods is a rice and a stew. So think of it

1:02:47 → 1:02:53
like a non-spicy curry. So it has spices, but it's not like chili spicy.  have like an okra

1:02:53 → 1:02:57
stew, which I think you have in the U S in the southern States, right? We have an okra lamb

1:02:57 → 1:03:05
stew with garlic and okra and tomato sauce. You'll have a aubergine eggplant stew.  Um,

1:03:05 → 1:03:11
you'll have so many different things. like this, um, it's kind of like a cookie made out of

1:03:11 → 1:03:15
dough and dates. There's like, it's a dough stuff. It's like a cookie stuffed with dates.

1:03:15 → 1:03:19
So instead of adding sugar, you have dates. It's called clear check. That one's really

1:03:19 → 1:03:24
nice. It's so many. really love Iraqi food because you get so much like. Variety. It's a lot of

1:03:24 → 1:03:28
it's like you get the flatbreads, you get the rice.  Um, you get the, you have the stews,

1:03:28 → 1:03:33
you have the grilled food.  Um, and there's lots of dishes now that I'm somehow slipping

1:03:33 → 1:03:36
my mind, but then you have the influence from the Levant, which is like the hummus, the Baba

1:03:36 → 1:03:42
ganoush, all of that kind of is there.  Um,  yeah, I love it. Iraqi food for me is like,

1:03:42 → 1:03:47
it makes me feel at home. just love, love. That's awesome. So yeah. That's one of the

1:03:47 → 1:03:51
main things. Yeah, no, thank you. That's one of the food is always one of the main things

1:03:51 → 1:03:56
we feel like even when people, you know, emigrate to a new place, it's like food is always central

1:03:56 → 1:04:06
in the household. Do you have a favorite celebrity from Iraq? could be a celebrity. There's a

1:04:06 → 1:04:10
chef that kind of became famous as a Iraqi chef. His name is Chef Shaheen. I went to his restaurant

1:04:10 → 1:04:17
in Dubai. He's pretty cool. He's a cool guy. He came. He's also UK. He's from like a different

1:04:17 → 1:04:22
city in the north. He's one of the later immigrants and he went on MasterChef. Have you seen MasterChef,

1:04:22 → 1:04:27
that British cooking show? Yeah. Yeah. He reached like a, I think he reached the, he didn't win,

1:04:27 → 1:04:31
but he kind of did quite well on MasterChef and then he had his YouTube following and then

1:04:31 → 1:04:36
he opened restaurants. So that's someone that comes to mind as well. Cool. But I bet I'm

1:04:36 → 1:04:40
forgetting like some really famous. No, no worries. It's a tricky question. like totally forgetting

1:04:40 → 1:04:43
right now where I'm like, oh damn, I should have thought of them, but yeah, that's just

1:04:43 → 1:04:48
what comes to mind. No, it's all good. You want to ask one more? Yes. Well, maybe two more.

1:04:49 → 1:04:59
I always like to ask too, if you have a favorite like phrase or saying or expression or expression

1:04:59 → 1:05:06
that maybe your parents used or something. Yeah, it's always a hard one. I know it's always

1:05:06 → 1:05:11
a hard one, but I like to ask it. You know, I've thought of one and it's a funny one because

1:05:11 → 1:05:16
it's like it's mostly English and I'll tell you in a second. And there's probably better

1:05:16 → 1:05:19
ones that I could think of if I thought for longer, right? But what came to the top of

1:05:19 → 1:05:28
my head is a really funny one because it's simply this. Take it easy, ya Azizi. Take it easy.

1:05:28 → 1:05:33
And ya Azizi is pretty much just because it rhymes, but it means my dear. My dear, take

1:05:33 → 1:05:37
it easy, my dear. And it just means like, you know, take it easy. It's all right. It's all

1:05:37 → 1:05:42
going to be fine. And that's just what's come to my mind. And it's more of a jokey. I don't

1:05:42 → 1:05:44
even know how common it is, but it's something my parents that would sometimes say, we'll

1:05:44 → 1:05:52
say, take it  easy.  Take it easy. dear. I love that. That's cute. Yeah,  I like that. Very

1:05:52 → 1:05:58
nice. Okay. I like that. I like that one. I'll tell you some famous phrases. There's like,

1:05:58 → 1:06:04
shaku maku is a known Iraqi phrase of like, Hey,  it means WhatsApp. It just means WhatsApp

1:06:04 → 1:06:11
and shaku means what is there? And maku means  What, what isn't there kind of what means

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nothing. So it's like, is, what is happening? What's not happening? It's kind of means what's

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happening. What's not happening. But it's just a funny, it's shaku maku because it rhymes.

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It's just like shaku maku. It's a known Iraqi phrase that like other Arabs, when they find

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out I'm Iraqi, they will say to me shaku maku.  And so that's that's a funny, that's a funny

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thing that they'll say in Iraq. The other thing that is known for Iraq is, is how we say, how

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are you? The phrase in Arabic is shlonek, which means what color are you? So the literal translation

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is, what color are you? Just meaning like,  guess, because  like,  what's the right word?

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Metaphorically, you're different, if you're happy, you're a different color to when you're

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sad. It's a reference to emotions, not a literal reference to like skin color or anything.

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So shlonek is a known Iraqi phrase as well, which means, how are you? It basically just

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means how are you?  Oh, cool.  I love that question. The answers that we get from that question

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is always so great. Okay. And our last question is, do you have like a happy place in Iraq

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from when you visited or it doesn't even feel like home or something? Yeah. It doesn't have

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to be a place. can even kind of just be like a memory. From Iraq. Oh, I wish I had more

1:07:32 → 1:07:38
memories in Iraq. I don't have that many. because I just went once when I was like, how old was

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I? 20 or 19. And once when... I can't even do math. And then once much more recently. But

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I'll tell you what, there are some religious shrines in Iraq of like the grandson of the

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prophet, the son-in-law of the prophet, the first Imam in Shia Islam. So these are really

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like, I need to like show it to you or something, or you need to see like TikToks or videos of

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it.  really, really beautiful mosques,  beautiful,  like the intricate mosaics and the like mirror,

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they use these like mirrored mosaics and like the way the light is and the way the domes

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are. It's really, really beautiful and it's very spiritually  resonant. So it's somewhere,

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and when you said happy place, that's what I thought of. So I thought of the, for example,

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the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf, which is the,  or the Qadhimiyyah mosque in Baghdad. And

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basically these are like, you can think of them as like they're the Imams of Shia culture,

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of Shia Islam. So Shia is the, is the second most common type of Muslim. the most common,

1:08:46 → 1:08:51
it's like kind of like Christian and Protestant. It's a little bit like that. So there's two

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sects. So it's the, it's the low, less populous. So I think around 80 % of the world's Muslims

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are Sunni, around 20 % are Shia. So it's a Shia Muslim. kind of shrines that you can visit.

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It's almost like saints to visit saints or imams. And they're very spiritually grounding, very,

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very beautiful. So if you even see footage of it, if you type in the Imam Ali mosque and

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have a look at that on TikTok or something, you'll see people who visit it or the Imam

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Hussein mosque. It's just mosques in Iraq that are like shrines. They're really, really beautiful.

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And it can really be somewhere where you can feel that peace  and feel connected to God

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and spirituality. Nice. Awesome. This has been a fantastic conversation. We've had so much

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fun. Hasan, we really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. I know, Brianna's

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loving this as a lover of London. No, it's just an honor to meet you. It's so cool. know, author

1:09:50 → 1:09:53
of the book and everything. But no, I've really loved. We could have gone down so many different

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other pathways, but we really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. a lot of

1:09:57 → 1:10:01
fun. It's been really fun. I love talking about culture. I love talking about differences.

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how it was brought up. can see I've thought about it a lot. Yeah, for sure.  Awesome. Thank

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you so much. Thank you.