Country Switching | Growing Up with Parents from Sierra Leone feat. Jaygima

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Hello and welcome to Culture In Between, a podcast that explores unique experiences of people

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who have grown up in a culture outside of their parents' culture.  We are your hosts, Alyssa

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and Brianna, and in today's episode, we are excited to get to talk with Jaygima, whose

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parents are from Sierra Leone. Jaygima, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, wow. Thank

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you, ladies, for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to the chat. Let's get into it. Yeah,

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I'm excited. OK, so you want to start us off by just giving us an introduction on... Where

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are you from and all that? So I guess I can start from my parents, really. So my parents,

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both of them, moved to the States from Sierra Leone when they were really young. It was around

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that time in the early 70s and the 60s where they were offering a lot of educational scholarships

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to young people in Africa and the Caribbean to come to the States, even to do medicine.

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It was just that wave that was happening during that time. And both of them came to the States

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for school  and happened to stay there, not just from the school perspective, but ended

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up building their life there.  that's, we were all,  it was four of us, I four siblings.

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I'm the one in the middle, two older sisters, me and then a younger brother. So my parents

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didn't move back to Sierra Leone until after...  74, a little bit after I was born. And then

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my younger brother was actually born in Sierra Leone.  But that's how we came to be. But my

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parents had three of us in Washington, D.C.,  where we lived in a  community. So that's

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really the beginning of the  saga of moving around. It really started from those two.

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OK. And  what were your parents studying? So my dad studied philosophy. Okay. And my mom

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studied nursing. She started off with a nursing degree and then moved into education. So, and

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I'm sure you guys know that's literally like the one main thing for African and Caribbean

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parents, education, education, education. Gather as many degrees as possible. So that's really

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what their goal. came and most of their surroundings were also other.  diaspora, either from West

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Africa or from the Caribbean. And that was a small community that they all grew  and grew

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with in the DC Maryland area, which is still that way, to be really honest with you. It's

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almost like a little conclave outside of itself where  you have every little mini country can

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be represented in that DC Maryland area. You can meet Jamaicans who tell you, it's all Jamaicans

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here.  You can meet someone from Sierra Leone and say, no, this is the main Sierra Leone

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community. But it just to show that the culture there is rich, where it really protects that

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community and that community can actually kind of thrive within the U.S. know, food from back

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home,  parties, culture. So I also grew up in that space that's also very protected, right?

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You're in the U.S. but you're also  not of the U.S., right?  We were in the U.S. We went to

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school, but when you came home, our culture, my food, people we hung around with. It was

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all tied to that diaspora. And that was mostly my upbringing. Gotcha. Interesting. I didn't

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know there was a wave of, like in the 70s, like coming to the US. Because that's around the

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time... That's around the time when our parents came. I thought, I don't know if their reasoning

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was more... I know my mom, it was kind of lot of violence going on in Jamaica at the time,

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I believe. So I think it was just more... There was also  a very concerted effort for a certain

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kind of skill set, because my husband's from Jamaica and his mom moved around that time.

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they were really looking for, if you notice in that time, a lot of them were working in

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home health care  or in the hospitals. There was a need for that, and especially in New

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York.  And it was almost kind of like it was feeding that need  for these empty jobs that

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were there. So visas were given.   very regularly if you were someone who studied and wanted

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to come to the States. So it was a  it was a very ripe time to bring that part of the world

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in.  I'm sure a lot of folks don't remember that because now, you know, times have changed,

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but there was an active need,  right, for that type of  workforce to come to the States, especially

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to go to school. But my parents were also, and I think that generation was also very, tied

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to their culture. So even though they came,  and I think that's the difference, because

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my grandparents were very  Eurocentric in the way like their names were very Eurocentric.

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They named their children Eurobased, but then those folks who came to the States were very

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tied to the roots. My dad named all of us after an African name. So it was very conscious that,

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okay, even though we're not living there, right, our name means something, we're a name.  So

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the culture  would never go away, right? And it would kind of just be part of our lifestyle.

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So, but the  interesting thing is we didn't stay in the U.S. My dad had to leave and move

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back to Sierra Leone because his dad was getting older.  And so my formative years, I left the

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States and I lived in Sierra Leone  for my formative years. So that's why it's kind of hard. If

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you'd meet me in the street today and ask me where I'm from, I would say Sierra Leone. Okay.

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Because  it's less questions. It only depends  if I plan to be friends with you for a long

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period of time. Right.  So if I say Sierra Leone, because I know somewhere down the road, you're

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going to ask some questions, but if I'm meeting a stranger, would just say, I'm from the U

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S  because there are the things will come up. You start hearing an accent. That would be

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one that you'd be like, Oh, you're saying things, you know, a little different.  Um, so I usually

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also say Sierra Leone, but then I left Sierra Leone at 12 and we moved to the UK.  So my

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middle school years was spent in the UK. And for those three years, then we moved again

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back again to the US. So my dad was a diplomat. So that moving around also didn't give us a

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chance to kind of like belong in any specific place because I can tell you now, I go to Sierra

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Leone and they would tell you immediately like, okay, you there's a word that they use. to

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come, they call it then just come. It doesn't matter if you speak Creole, they know you're

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not the true native that has lived there.  And so there's that angst of not really belonging

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anywhere.  Because even in the US, folks are very quick to just say, oh, I hear an accent.

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are from? And I'm like, I was born in Georgetown Hospital. Where are you from?  But I see where

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that is coming from. They can tell you their layers. But there's so many of us in the States

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that are like that, that have these complex layers, right? But we're still, and I always

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say, but I'm still American. There's an American part of me that is  mixed with the Sierra Leonean

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part of me that makes it a unique experience that maybe just someone who's been  just a

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regular American person might not necessarily, you know?  vice versa, because I think I'm

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more outspoken. in a certain sense. And I think that also comes from being in the US and how,

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you know, we handle. So it's a balance. It's an interesting balance, yeah. I feel like you

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might be our first guest who's from, who has lived for a significant period of time in so

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many different areas. I Angelica is maybe the second most, but she was kind of younger. But

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like living your, yeah, more formative years in like these places. That's interesting. yeah.

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You see that trend is changing now. think, of course, back then, economic... And the reason

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we moved around a lot, because that was my dad's job.  My mom passed away when I was 12, and

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then he  was an ambassador. So we moved based on his job. He was the ambassador from Sierra

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Leone to the UK. So that's why we moved to the UK. And then he was an ambassador again from

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Sierra Leone to the States,  when we moved back to the US. And then after he finished that,

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just, he, he, he's a teacher. So by trade, he just taught and he's been, I always make fun

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of him. You know, he's taught in so many schools in the U S and this notion that, especially

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from an immigrant  perspective, what they give to us, he's taught so many young Americans.

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He's taught schools in DC, university of Connecticut. He taught at Spelman. He's taught in so many

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schools, university of Iowa.  you have made an imprint in a certain generation, right?

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And those are those people that came to the states that left their mark on the states,

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right? And folks do not necessarily give that generation that due credit  of the impact that

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they've made because a lot of them worked in places of service, either being in education

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or in medicine in some sort of fashion. But I think that now it's  Because we're here with

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our youngest son. Our two older, our two boys are 10 years apart. So when we moved to the

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one stayed in the States for school and we have our youngest one here and he's  You know  majority

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of his life now he was born in Georgia, but. He lived more in the Netherlands now than he

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has in Atlanta, right? So he  did these kids now who are not just one dimension.  You know,

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anymore, there's this culture coming now where children are associating themselves unnecessarily

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with their nationality. Cause I find it interesting when you look at people's tags on Instagram

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and putting all their flags  attached to that. Right. And you see all the deep roots that

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never used to be like you were told you had to pick a side at some point  in our generation.

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Like you couldn't be from  all these specific places, but now you have global citizens. You

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don't even have. people who are just  on this, you can say, yeah, my nationality is this,

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but I've lived here, I've lived here,  you know, which kind of makes that rich tapestry of everyone's

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life, right? So  I like that trend. I think it's better than the latter. Yeah. Yeah. I'm

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sure you've probably heard the term like third culture kids. That's like a new thing now.

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Really? No, I've not heard Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Cause that to me perfectly describes

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you and maybe even your younger son and all. Like it's just, it's like this idea of like,

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I think the technical terminology or meaning behind it is like, know, have your parents'

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culture, you have the culture that you like mostly grew up in, and then that combines to

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create like a third culture where like you're kind of in between.  So, yeah, so, but it's

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usually used to refer to kids who have grown up in a lot of different places, like how your

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dad was a... as diplomat or like, I'm going to write that down. Yeah, yeah. Third culture

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kit. Yeah, there's like a book about it, everything. Really? Yeah, yeah. So it's a whole thing.

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And that to me perfectly describes you, especially like someone who really like grew up in the

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world.  In all of these different spaces. And I would it would be  really interesting to

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even, you know, talk to people that kind of experience that to see like their sense of

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belonging like, right. Where do you belong? But I think that notion is in my old brain.

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I think the younger folks are like, well, I don't have to belong.  You know, I had a conversation

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with my son years ago about that, where I said, you but you're Jamaican.  dad's Jamaican. And

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he's like, well, how does that work? No.  And I said, well, no, because in my, you go with

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your paternal, wherever your paternal  father is, that's your, you know, that is a very African,

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especially West African thing, you know, our tribes are also  assigned by your, your paternal.

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So, and he says, well, that doesn't make any sense.  I'm sorry, Leon. I can't just be one

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thing. And I'm like, you know what?  You know what? That makes sense. Yes.  You know? So

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it's that now I'm going to say, no, you are the third culture kid. I'm  going to actually

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have a term for him so he can kind of use that. But it's true. You, you, your tapestry of every

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single  place you've kind of lived in, even if you don't realize.  Right. As much as I

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would want to say I'm not from Georgia, you know, I'm not a Georgia peach.  I've lived

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in Georgia for 18 years and raised both of my kids there. There's no way I can say there's

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some part of that culture that I didn't love or appreciate. And, you know, I think I lived

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in Georgia more than even the place where I was born,  because D.C. I was in and out. I

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never lived in D.C. full straight 18 years. It was in Atlanta. in the South, which was

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very different from where I grew up in the East Coast up North. So that was also a different

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culture shift  for me, even within the US.  But I think there are parts of me,  like I

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still say, yes, ma'am, and sir to people, which I know that's where I got it from.  There's

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no need for me to call.  I even call people sir and ma'am that are even younger than I

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am. But I think that's definitely where I got that from. The respect.  Yeah, respect and

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how to kind of address folks that you don't necessarily know. That's definitely a downside.

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I did not learn that in DC, I can tell you that. Or a fact. feel like we have that same thing

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from the Jamaican side. Very much a... I don't know, I see sometimes kids talk to their parents

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and they say like, what or yeah. And like, I was not allowed to talk back. I had to say

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like, yes mom and yes dad. And then you still kind of... do those things.  know, even I don't

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know, even even when people refer to each other in Jamaica, it's like, oh, miss this and miss

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Young.  Yeah, it's like a respect. It is  absolutely. And it's very southern as well, which is interesting

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because that is the same transfer. Right.  Same with us of how we address, you know,  our elders.

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And it's the same kind of way in part with our children. Right. So moving here to Netherlands.

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We love equality, especially between children and adults. do, they want their children to

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feel like they're equal parts of society. They can make their own choices, right? And that's

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great. We love that. But  we also tell her,  we do live in a different home, right? So

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you do not get to refer to your teacher by her first name because everybody else in the classes,

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you still have to refer to her. I missed this and missed this, right? So that is still there.

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And that is also a Southern thing. They're very...   And I think the parts of Southern culture

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that I like, I would take and keep. And of course, others, they,  you know, leave it back to them.

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But to your point, that is very the same thing too, from a Caribbean and African household,

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that level of respect, you know, that like, there's a good one when you call someone, right?

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You're not supposed to just yell and answer. You're supposed to show up.  you know, I say,

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yes, mom.  Yeah, yeah, so it's it's it's a it's a it's an interesting dynamic that way. I want

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to try and get I'm going to try and recap and then you can tell me where I mess up. OK, so

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you were born in the States.  Yes. Then you went to Sierra Leone for your formative years.

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Then you guys went to the UK. Right. Then from there, did you go back to Sierra Leone?  No,

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we went back to the US, the States. Yeah, then DC Maryland area. So that's why I went to high

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school. I think it's better to look at it through school. So elementary school, like a bigger

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chunk of not just some of the elementary schools in the US, but the biggest chunk was in Sierra

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Leone, middle school in the UK, high school in college in the US. And then from there,

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you kind of paved your path where you wanted to go. Exactly. So we came back ninth grade.

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So I remember when we moved back in ninth grade and it was like one of the biggest culture

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shocks that I've ever had in my life was moving back. Because in my mind, I'm like, oh yeah,

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we're Americans. We're coming back. This is perfect. And then we open our mouths and folks

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are like, where are you from? So interesting. Yeah, it was awful. Can you expand on that?

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I love culture shocks. What  did you experience when you came back? I think it was everything.

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was like, because we owned to our American. We held onto our Americans, especially in the

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UK.  No, I'm from the US.  We're from the US, right? And then we show up and folks just like,

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why do you sound that way? We were using wrong words.  know, like my sister got  like calling

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a trash instead of dustbin, like little things like that.  And people would laugh at you.

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You know, like my sister had this thing where we in the UK to ask like an eraser is called

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a rubber. And my sister was embarrassed one day because she asked someone for a rubber

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in class because she didn't have one.  And it became this big joke because they thought she

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was asking for, you know, okay. She was just asking for an eraser. Right. So it's little

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things like that where then we felt like, okay, maybe this is not really our, our play, our

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home in a way. Right. So it's almost kind of like, have to kind of get reintegrated into

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the culture. Because I'm not going to lie, would,  some of my American friends, there are certain

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kind of cultural aspects if you were not born, there no gaps, right, that you get that I have

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to kind of catch up with. And I did not necessarily would,  I wasn't there in middle school. So

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I didn't experience that for most of my middle, you know.  So I came in in ninth grade. So

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at a certain extent from that on, that is my American experience.  Anything after that,

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I don't really have. anything to kind of pull, you know, to pull from. it's even harder for

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my older siblings because they were older when they got here. And if you meet all of us, you

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would probably say me and my younger brother are more Americanized than them two. Because

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it's almost kind of like they came in fully formed already  and really living kind of like,

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you know, not really assimilating as much.  Right. Really staying in communities that were

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more. you know, Sierra Leone or African base, because that was really their comfort zone

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where my brother and I were like, you know, we're back home. Let's go. You know,  day 10

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more to kind of keep within their own community,  which is still that way. Like I know folks

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who have never left the D.C. Maryland area. It's a comfort. Like I don't blame them. You

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know,  I I'm a wonderless person anyway, so it's easy for me to pick up and go.  Got it.

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I get that need to be in community.  I'm sure that experience that you had  moving around

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all the time kind of made you that personality as well, because you kind of had to to  survive

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and function, I guess.  Yeah, I think my oldest siblings are not that big of a change in that

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that manner. Maybe because you younger and more adaptable, potentially. think so. I think so,

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because,  you know, when they heard we were moving to the Netherlands, I think they were

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like, oh, hey, those two go again. Because I actually marry someone who's very similar to

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me in that sense. Because the way we decided to do the Netherlands was not necessarily planned

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for a long period of time. It was very spontaneous because the job offer came through my husband's

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company at Phillips. because Phillips is a Dutch company. So when they offered it, he called

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me and was like, they want me to move to the Netherlands. What do you think? I said, where

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are we going to go? Tacky bags. Where's our bags? And the timing was perfect because our

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oldest was about to graduate. And we almost saw it like a sign. I mean, we had talked about

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leaving the U S  we just didn't know the timing of when we wanted to do it. We always thought

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it would be through my job because from an international NGO perspective. we didn't see that it would

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come from it. And that's how life is so interesting that way. You just put things out in the universe

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and that's all we talked about all the time that this is what we wanted. This is what we

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wanted. We necessarily didn't say Netherlands. We have other places we're thinking about,

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but And now that we know we practice that all the time, we speak things into existence all

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the time because literally it just kind of  the opportunity kind of fell in our lap and

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we were like, this is we wanted to do. You're from so many places. OK. And so, you know,

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people who are kind of from different cultures are like, OK, like for us, we would identify

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ourselves as Jamaican-American.  What do you call yourself? Like I know you said you probably

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say. I'm Sierra Leone, kind of depending maybe on.  like, how do you,  I don't know, how would

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you identify yourself? Do you have a lot of hyphens in there? Do you just, where do you

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feel? That's question.  If it's a form, I try to fill out the closest thing. Typically it's

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African-American, right? Which actually speaks to how rich  that term is. And folks, know

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lump it together, but it's such a rich term that's full with so many people of African

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diaspora that regard themselves as African-American, which I think that I am.  I don't think that's

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a  wrong assessment to put myself in that. I do identify as an African-American. But if

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I would,  like in the Netherlands, when I meet people,  I typically say I'm from the US  because

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it's quick.  It's not a longer story. Because what I find that if I say I'm Sierra Leone,

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it starts this longer story. It's like,  oh, you speak so well. Oh, I don't hear an accent.

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or where, you know, it becomes this barrage of me now having to educate people  that, you

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know, you can come from different places. So I typically do say that I'm from, you know

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what it is? It's it's location. Let me give you a quick story. Maybe that will help. My

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sister, my oldest sister, and my siblings come and visit me regularly. And I met her in Paris

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last month.  And she made a note about,  I noticed you tell different people where you're from

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differently based on who asked you, right? And I said, yeah, because now in  Europe, there's

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a certain group of folks that are not very pleasing from an American perspective, right? The passport

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is not as well,  you know.  Perceived.  Right, perceived. So I think that's where us, the

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third culture kid comes in and saves us because depending on the environment, I can quickly

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say, you know, and kind of, it's almost like code switching, country switching,  depending

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on, you know,  and not a lot of folks can be able to do that. And I said, oh, it's funny

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that you asked, but yeah, specifically there are places where I do say, but the most part

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when I'm meeting people, I do identify as an American. I think I come across as an American

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to a lot of Because even folks who are from Sierra Leone, if I say I'm from Sierra Leone,

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they're also kind of taking it back. Like, oh no, I didn't know that. There's a certain way

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to a subset of people, this is not all, there's a certain way that are been attributed to being

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African American. And I think I do fit that bill, good, bad, or indifferent. And to certain

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extent, I am very proud of that, right? where is that we're very outspoken  and we do speak

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in, know, there is that American thing about not waiting to be asked to speak, but if there

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is something happening in the environment, we'll be the first to say it. So  in the ways where

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it's positive, I'm very quick to say, yes, that's exactly who I am.  And that environment had

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kind of gave me, gave me that. And  I lean into it a hundred percent. I do not always look

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at it as  like my dad says, you can take all the good. pieces of all the culture and make

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that your own. And I think I do that. And Black women in America have a certain level of strength

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and perseverance and gosh, like a chutzpah, right? There's a certain, right? And I blend

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that with the African woman about me, especially on my mom's side, who's, you know, she was

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very regal and very... you know, ambitious and, you know, but also was a great wife and  valued

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the home and child rearing, right? So I'm that weird juxtaposition where, yes, I'm very driven,

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but I always make sure that there's dinner ready, that  I serve my husband's,  I fix his plate

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every night. In fact, we're meeting here and it's Netherlands time to eat. I made sure their

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plates were fixed before I even came  on the show, but not just for him,  but because it's

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less about duty and more about taking care of your family.  And that's what my mom stood

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for. And I think that's a very African part of me. That's where that comes from.  So I

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think I'm a blend. So I do check that African-American mark. Yes, I do.  But I also know that... You

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know, there is a certain part about me that's very African that I'm very proud of. And mind

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you, not a lot of these young African girls that do that anymore, by the way, that's a

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dying. My nieces tell me, we don't do that anymore. No, no. You know, it's a generational thing

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now, you know? He gets to fix his own place. Yes. That's funny. They become more like Americanized.

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There you go. That's exactly what it is. You've always said that. Interesting thing about like

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how... Jamaican women are kind of like that too, where they like, will take care of the

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house, but also... What's word? Patriarchal?  Oh, patriarchal? Yeah. It is patriarchal.

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Yeah, Jamaican... I mean, think that's probably like... Your husband is probably like... He's

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used to like how you said you fix a plate for him. He's probably like, oh yeah, that's normal.

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Because like, yeah, it's similar in Jamaica. Yeah, it's just kind of a patriarchal society.

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And a lot of Caribbean and...  Um, African societies are like, mother still does it to this day.

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Right. She would cook,  you know, when my father-in-law comes in, there's food  ready for him, but

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it's like, it's way to show love in different ways. Right. I think it's like love language.

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Like I always say a lot of Jamaican parents by now, that's like his grandmother, they could

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be really hard and strict, but yeah, make sure she cooks him all his favorite food. Right.

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But that was the really their, their way of showing love. Right. Make sure all the treats

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are there and things like that. So I. But thing is, growing up,  those are the things that

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I remember growing up. It's food, how  my mother took care of us. So I think for me, that is

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just,  you know, part of family  and showing, you know, that you care.  The fact that you

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even have your parents moving closer to you guys to be part of that journey as they're

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getting older is also a very Caribbean, you know, West African thing where it's like, you

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know, we might not all live in a multi-generational home, but That is part of your responsibility

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is to make sure your parents are okay when they're like, no one has to tell you that. You probably

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saw them do it for their parents. true. did. did. And that's just how, that's just one of

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those things. You don't get to say, so what are your plans for retirement? You are part

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of their retirement plan, right? Yeah, that's true. That's very true. the American thing,

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because after 18, you know, there's a hence the word nuclear family. There's a nuclear

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family and then there's everything else. And you have to kind of plan for your retirement

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because you shouldn't assume that your children, you know, are going to come and take care of

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you or be close to you in that manner. Because, you know, you have assisted living, you have

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homes, like, you know, it's not like it's  not downtrodden, but it's  not that, you know.

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It's not something that, you know, my husband and I, worry about that. We're getting, oh,

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we're that really weird age now where our kids, we're still taking care of our kids in a way

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because  they still need us. But now our parents need us even more.  I'm sure you guys are feeling

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that. So you have this generation.  really? I've not heard of that. Okay. Yeah. And then

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you have folks who don't don't have that,  you know, issue and they're just kind of like,

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yeah, or you know, my parents don't feel well and  where are they?  No, no, no. And I mean,

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even the fact that my dad sits in Sierra Leone, literally we have a schedule, all four of us,

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where we go home at a certain amount of time. So he's getting older. He's 84. He can see

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us and be around. He loves his independence. He's still doing his thing, but just making

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sure he sees us because he took care of his parents, especially his dad. He gave up his

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whole career. moved his whole family back to Sierra Leone to take care of his dad, right?

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So  it wasn't necessarily like he deserves to be taken care of. That's how we see it. Like

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he's done it now, we need to do  it in the manner that he would allow us to do, by the way, because

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he will not allow us in the way his parents like, he keeps on saying we're trying to take

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over his whole life.  He would,  he still wants control. We're just the peripheral, you know,

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yeah, yeah. But  that part is important.  And those are the pieces that we still try to teach

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our kids that way.  Cause Morris and I in a way have a blend. It's hard to say  what type

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of household we're in and how we blended. I think we kind of make it up. It's kind of our

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own because there are a lot of things that, say for instance, he didn't have that he does

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with the boys. Like they're a lot more affectionate. There's a lot of more I love yous  and hugs

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and cuddles. Yeah, because he didn't get it at all. Oh, okay. I was going to say, Javakins

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are not that way typically. So to this day, like it's still, you know.  We used to make

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jokes when we used to tell my dad, love you, he used to say, thank you. When we were younger.

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Because he didn't know how to respond. Because it's like our mom used to be the affectionate

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one. And when she passed away, he was kind of forced to take that. But he grew up your typical

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African older child, which is also another level of responsibility. So don't even get to be

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a child for a very long time. because you have younger siblings. So very quickly that tenderness

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is taken away from you as well because you now have to almost be a surrogate parent, right?

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So he's learning not just from  us, but his grandkids, just that very soft,  you know?

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Now he says things like, you can't punish them. You gotta talk to them.  And me and my husband

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look around like, who are these people?   Where are you coming up with this new way of parenting

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that  never occurred? Right?  It's  different now, guess. Yeah, it is interesting though

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that some of those  commonalities like, yeah, like it's not, it's just kind of an innate

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thing. Like, yes, okay, I have to help out.  I'm the oldest of the two of us. So it's like,

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okay, I have to help out with this stuff now that my parents are older. And it's just like,

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okay.  And I'm not saying it's always fun to do, it is like,  it's a like, okay, like this

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is my job and stuff. And, like  at the same time, you know, my, my grandparents, one instead

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of my grandparents never wanted to move. So my mom would have to fly back and forth and

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that was very hard taking care of them as they got older. So she has made a concerted effort

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to, you know, make sure her, her money is in order and all these things. And she's like,

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I don't want you to have some of the same burdens  I had. where some of those assumptions are

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made of like, you know, oh, well, the kids will just kind of do this thing. it's almost like,

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yeah, it's a different, it's a different level of grandparents. Now, that's what I say. A

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lot more to your point, right? And I think a lot more independent. I mean, if you would

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think about it, right, like our grandparents would at a certain age will come sit and being

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taken care of and usually help raise that next. No, no, no. My dad is.  They still want their

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life, right? It's a different, even to my husband's parents. They're still very independent. And

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to your point, do not even want to depend on us in that way that their parents depended

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on them.  know? Which makes you want to even be there for them even a little bit more.

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Right? Because it... I think, like... Because you know if they're asking for help, they really

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need it, I guess. Exactly. No, no, no, it's true. Because... I cannot even imagine my dad

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asking any one of us to say, yeah, you guys move down here to take care of me.  You know

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what I mean? Like  he's too, first of all, he wouldn't want that because he thinks we'll

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get all in his business, right? That's all he keeps on saying. You and your sister is trying

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to control me. Your son is the only one. And I'm like, no, really, we just want you to get

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things done right, you know? But to his end, like he needs us, but at our arm's length.

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And we let him have it.  When it's  time for us to baby him, like he had a cold the other

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day, called me, you know, right in the middle of the fact that he can't speak, just say,

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I don't feel good. So I say, okay, let me call him back and make him feel good. So it's little

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things like that. They're different because I remember my grandparents wanted to be more

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with the grandkids and be really hands-on. This generation is not like that.  They're not babysitters.

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They're here to kind of live their own full existence, right?  and good luck to you guys,

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know, whatever y'all wanna do. But at the end of the day, it's, and I think that what works

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for Morris and I, we both support each other when it comes to our parents. Yeah. none, without

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even asking or even understanding, because sometimes I think what we both realize, you kind of have

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to be in the middle to understand certain family dynamics. So I don't say much on his and vice

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versa. Because you know your turn is going to come next, right? Yeah, when things are stirring

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up on his end, you know what I mean? I just I know I'm just I'm just being supportive.

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I'm just a supportive cast to say, hang in there. Whatever you need, we can get it done because

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asking the questions and like, why are doing that? And don't you think your mom take care

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of herself? Yeah, yeah. It just adds that already dynamic in you that is just trying to be. a

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good daughter at the same time, you know, do your thing so that you know that struggle is

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real. So you just let that person you just let that person handle it and just pray. Yeah.

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I guess, you know, even though you guys, you and your husband are from different places,

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you know, some of the upbringing, you know, Jamaica being having African roots anyway,

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you having some similarities. It's similar. Yeah, it's interesting because even though

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I'm curious if like maybe you would have to. explain more if you had married somebody who's

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just maybe like American, like just always. Yeah. But then I mean, my brother, my brother's

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wife is American. She's from Texas. So I think like we have all different types. My older

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sister's married to an African man, but he's not from Sierra Leone. He's from a Francophone

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country, which is, mean, the French speaking country. So culturally, that's also a little

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bit different and the language is different. Right. And then. The oldest is married to a

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serial union. So it's like we all have these different complex kind of dynamics, but but

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it kind of works because really to be honest with you, I think that the The thread lies

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in your individual self, right? What you what you value? What's what would get you to be

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attracted to someone that had those similar values, right? I didn't necessarily know that

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Morris and I were gonna be that evenly matched until we started raising families together

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and certain things will come up because we're not really doing a checklist, right? So I think

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in the beginning, just having that alignment of values, you start realizing like, gosh,

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he was raised all the way over there, but really at the end of the day, we have so much in common

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of how we see the world and what we wanna do, you know? And I think that's where we started

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off from. And then everything else  just kind of went together.  I realized the similarities.

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It was crazy from the food, you know, because I also cook a lot of Jamaican food. The base

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is very similar. Right. Where we go from that, you know, I think the only food I don't cook

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is aki because I feel like I don't like, don't know. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of aki, but it's

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an acquired taste. That's I'm concerned. Right. I mean, my sons love it, which is crazy. Really?

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OK. Like I would eat the sawfish, but I'm not a big.  The whole concept of Aki is weird to

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me. We're like the fruit is poisonous before and so like I just I'm like I just you know

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I just stay away from this.  And  if you don't cook it properly you would murder everyone

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in your family. you know  I never touch that. We said we feel sorry for the poor souls who

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had to figure that out before.  Like people who didn't know that was a thing. I'm sure

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there were a lot of graves that came together for us to eat Aki in the way we're eating it

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today but that's one food. I think if anything, the only kind of food that I don't cook is

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aki, but everything else  I incorporate  into, you and the other thing that was odd for me

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is like, I'm also from a patriarchy side, like cooking. My mom was very big about me and my

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sisters learning how to cook, not my brother. But then I meet my husband who's literally

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like, can cook anything. Oh, really? Oh, because he was taught. My dad cannot I met so many

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Caribbean men. I'm so shocked because I'm like, where did you come from? Because the men that

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I grew up with. That's really interesting. They don't even know where the repriture is. It

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really depends on the family, I think, in Jamaica. I think so. And then maybe also where he's

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from. He was born in Kingston, but he grew up with his... That's also another story that...

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that speaks to diaspora. His mom left him when he was less than a year old to be raised by

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his grandparents when she moved to the US and didn't move to the US until he was 10. So

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he was raised by grandparents. And I always say the people who are raised by grandparents

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at a certain level, they have like this oldness about them.  They have skill sets where they

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survive, like, you know,  different things like that. But when I met him, he  could cook. Well,

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I mean, of course now he, you know.  You know how what happens when you marry them, everything

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just abruptly ended.  Cook everything, know, from Eskovitch. I mean, that's how  I moved

40:19 → 40:28
my friends and I and everything. know,  that. That is something different that I do with

40:28 → 40:35
my sons that I did not see my mother do with my brother. I teach my kids to cook like fried

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plantains. You know, how to cut it up, especially if you love to eat that food. I'm going to

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have to teach you how to how to how to cook that. Right. So you don't find yourself, you

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know, just being more self reliant. Right. And because my brother to this day lives in Texas.

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And my sister would cook certain African dishes for him, freeze it and ship it over. Yes, sir.

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That's that's that's what African. That's hilarious. To this day, like literally just happened not

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too long ago. it's... It's care of him from afar still. Oh yes, oh yes. To make sure he

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eats all his favorite types of food and gets that. You want to get some of our fun questions?

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Yeah, yeah. No, this has been such an interesting... It's been fun questions all Oh yes, that's

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true. We need to have like a name for it. We call it our fun questions, I mean, it's that

41:32 → 41:36
they're lighter, but they're not like... It's just a different section that we used to do

41:36 → 41:43
at end. It's all fun. So yeah,  so  we haven't gotten to talk as much specifically about Sierra

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Leone, so I want to really get into that. Oh, yes. So you brought up food a little, and especially

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you talked about Jamaican food, but let's talk about Sierra Leone Yes, let's.  So yeah, so

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can you tell us about some Sierra Leone food that you like?  Oh, my gosh. I don't think

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there's any Sierra Leone food I do not buy.  I think maybe... Maybe I should just start

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with the top. What's your favorite? You don't have a favorite dish? Yeah, I do. OK, what's

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your favorite? So for instance,  and I'm sure you probably heard it, in West Africa, and

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that's also the thing too, a lot of West African countries, we all dabble in very similar dishes.

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I'm sure you've heard the whole Jollof Rice War. Yeah.  You know, which  I do believe that

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Sierra Leone makes really good Jollof.  I do, I do. We do, we do. Ours is very similar, even

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close. close to even how  the Senegalese do it, which is very, which is separate, right?

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The rice and the sauce is separate.  The Nigerians, it's more like,  I don't know. It's like a

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one part thing. It's great, good for them.  It's not true, but I think the Senegalese jollof

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is the best. But of course,  you know,  this cassava leaves, which is a big staple, and

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that's from the cassava plant, you know.  And then we eat, we  use the leaf, you know, to

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make a sauce. And then it's where we've kind of vegetable base. We have a lot of leafy vegetables

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that that's one thing. And I didn't even recognize it. I my husband had to say that more. It's

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like, man,  people have spinach, right? You have Kalaloo and things like that. Like we

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have so many. And I think maybe some that I might not even know of. So I grew up eating

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a lot of like leafy greens in that sense. There's a lot of different names for it. You have crink

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cranes, have cassava leaves, you have potato leaves. And then again, Sierra Leone, well,

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I grew up in Freetown. We're right by the ocean. So it's a lot of fish, right? Even though we

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are not an island, we living by the water that is a certain lifestyle that's very close to

43:54 → 44:00
living by the water from a cultural perspective, right? The way I like to see it, and it's not

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just me, when my dad, arrived in Kingston, he felt the same way. One knows actually Montego

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Bay. It looks just like the same backdrop as Sierra Leone.  Very weird because we're very

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mountainous.  That's really where the name comes from. It's a Portuguese name. means lion mountain.

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Oh, okay. And yeah, it's, it's a colonizer story. They were just sailing by. They didn't even

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stop. They were sailing by because we actually are British colony, but we were named by the

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Portuguese. So we do not speak Portuguese. The main language is English. Um, and then the

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dialect is Creole, which is very similar to Patois. Like I can understand what my husband

44:39 → 44:44
says if he speaks a little slowly. But if I travel, like sometimes I travel and sometimes

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when he really is back home, I cannot understand a word that, you know, it's been said. And

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he also understands, um, Creole in that sense. It's not broken English because, you know,

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the Nigerians speak more like a  broker Patois. You know,  whereas Creole is actually a written

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language, you know, and it's just, it's a subset of all the different,  it's turned to the Creole

45:12 → 45:19
people. So Freetown, if you guys did not know, was the city built from the free slaves, free

45:19 → 45:26
British slaves that moved back. So at a time where they had  abolished slavery, the British

45:26 → 45:31
had asked, certain subsets if they wanted to go and that was the group. So you had some

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Nova Scotians, people from the islands, Jamaica and whatnot, and they all moved. And these

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are all different. So in Creole, there are some Spanish words in there, English words, French

45:42 → 45:47
words in there that kind of makes that language, but that's the language of those people who

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settle in Freetown. So those folks are not  tribal Sierra Leoneans, but that is the generation

45:55 → 46:01
that got moved there. And now, if anything, have a majority in the capital city really

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are the Creos. And those are the ones that remind me from a culture perspective, like

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Jamaicans. You know, like when I went to Jamaica, it was like the whole time I'm like, you guys

46:13 → 46:18
are moving and talking like Creos  because it's that, that, that, that, I think that's where

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some of the interchangeable things happen, like certain ways of using words that are so similar.

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Like I would say something, he would say it. And I'm like, no, that's our word. He'd be

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like, no, that's our word. And I'm like, well, who came first? So it's very intertwined, which

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also makes my husband want to find his place in that space. So living in West Africa is

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something that we're definitely planning on doing. That's our next step once we leave Europe.

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in the spirit of putting things out in the air, like we definitely want to go back  and not

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to even retire, but give back and live and work  and build our next phase of our life there.

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Now that we're done  raising our kids, it's important that we live there  because  what

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we have found in living everywhere is that that culture is a mirror back to ourselves. We see

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ourselves more there. We feel so comfortable.  You know, living there,  it's really interesting

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hearing from his perspective as someone who lives in Jamaica and thinking about living

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there, he feels at home. You know, there are really weird intricacies where he's just like,

47:37 → 47:42
no, like this feels like I'm home. So that is something that we're we're definitely going

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to look at. But Sierra Leone, if you're everything in a visiting, just a fun, loving place like

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we do not. We don't take things seriously. We like to have a good time. It's like that beach

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culture. Like anywhere you go, where people are around water, you know people are easygoing

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and they just want to relax, right? Like long lunches, right?  People want to be able to

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sit by the beach and have a good beer.  I feel like  most of the things that are good about

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me, I got from there, you know?  It's a really rich culture.  From really from West Africa,

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like most West African countries before we got all divided, we're really major tribes in that

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area that really kind of got, you know, split up.  I'm from the Mende tribe. My mom is,

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my dad is as well. And like I said, typically you align yourself with your father's tribe,

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but unfortunately I don't speak Mende as well. I still blame my dad for that. My sister actually

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speaks Mende. Um, the little words I'll say here and there, um, but there are many different

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languages, so many different cultures there that also practice even within their own  set,

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their own specific language and culture. And even like you say cassava leaves and there'll

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be a Monday way to cook it. Right. And then another tribe Timiny way of cooking it.  So

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even within  it's so rich, even within the small country. so many different layers and intricacies

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and cultures. But I do try my hardest to cook as much as I can, Serenading food. It's also

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something that you don't do quickly. in my life, so to be really honest, just in case my sisters

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and them listen to this podcast, they're like, you know, you're not cooking Serenading food

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every weekend. I have to get into the mood because say you're cooking cassava leaves, that literally

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will take you. all most of your day. It's not something that you're trying to whip up quickly.

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There's different levels,  right? To all of that. But  it's,  how do I say that? You can't

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call yourself a true triceratone if you do not know how to cook the food. The food is the

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main ingredient here, right? You have to learn  how to cook it.  Well, she was mentioning

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like, you know, Creole, and Patois, the language. So, you know, my favorite question to ask is

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always, do you have like a favorite Sierra Leonean expression or even just like a sound that they

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like, you know what Oh, yes. Oh, definitely. And I think my kids, they also adopted and

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my son, actually, he plays football and he was on the pitch. So, I mean, he speaks Dutch.

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He says European football. Yeah, yes. Oh, okay. I was thinking like, was thinking. No, I have

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been conditioned not to use the S word. We cannot play soccer here. It is football. Okay. And

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I heard him say, able to, to someone that did something on the pitch and able is just really,

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you can use that really in any context. It's more for the shock. Like how could you like,

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you know, it's like an exclamation. And I laughed that he used it, you know? So it's like, Able

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is kind of hard to  do a translation meaning in English. So it's more like a expression

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of, more like a shock. Like, did you do that? Kind of,  you know,  it's not a good sound,

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right? Able is usually like, watch out, like how could you? Right, right, right. You know,

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someone steps on you, you can use that. Or if someone's doing something. that is not in your

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favor, that's usually how you can get the attention of that person.  So I think that's one of my

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favorite ones that I use a lot.  Because I do try to speak Creole to them.  even if they're

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not practicing as much,  they understand. So when we go home, they can still be able to

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feel, when I mean home, Sierra Leone, they could be able to feel.  like they're also part of

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the community, right? Even if they don't speak Creole as well, because most people speak English

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and Serbian, they can understand what people are saying around them, which is important,

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you know, into feeling  belonging in a space.  But yeah, Eibull  is my favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

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All right. So we have  one last question.  And that is, can you tell us  about like a happy

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place in... Sierra Leone, is there like a place that makes you feel most at home there?  I

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think for me, it's the beach.  And maybe it's a West African thing. Have you guys ever heard

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or seen like when people go to Ghana and Accra and do that return to home and there's that

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ceremony people do New Year's Eve when they buy the water, right?  There's something, there's

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this ceremony that they do. And I know they're doing mostly there in Accra where New Year's

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Eve or seeing the new year, kind of see a prayer right by the ocean.  There's  something about

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the water when I go back that I like to just, and it could just be the family beach that

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I grew up in,  where every Sunday that was a place we would go to.  Or we also follow British

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holidays. So there's a holiday, what? Jamaica as well. You guys have Boxing Day.  That's

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a beach day for us.  It's like there's a lot of happy moments attached to the beach for

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me. And my mom is buried in Sierra Leone and she loved going to the beach even though she

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was afraid of us going into the water, which is very similar to a lot of African parents.

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mean, really, you know, there's a level of respect and fear that they have for the water. I mean,

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even even the Sierra Leone, if someone drowns, the way they interpreted in Creole, like, watate

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kam, meaning the water took the person. So there's almost this idea, there's a power behind this

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body, like respect, you know, so it's not just some random, okay, the person drowned, no,

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the water took, you know. Yeah, so I love, there's a certain feeling, I cannot describe it when

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I go home and when I'm around. the ocean. It's unbelievable. Even if I do not have time to

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do the beach, even flying out because the airport, you kind of have to go through the water. The

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airport is not linked to the mainland. There's an island where the airport comes in, you're

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right. And even that, just the waves are just something about that. And I guess it's just

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a part of the thing that kind of calls me home all the time is the water. I mean, maybe you

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guys can relate from Jamaica. And I think most people who grew up by the water can relate.

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There's something where you feel like you always have to be around some sort of body of water.

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So I know it's not isolated only to Sierra Leone, but there's a powerful feeling of I'm home

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and safety and like You know, just being in your own space,  know,  you know, that even

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just talking about it that I miss,  because even if I'm not going inside the water, just

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driving by it, sitting by a restaurant, because that's typically how they have restaurants

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right there,  aligning that water. That is my favorite hands down. Best part of Sierra Leone

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for me  is the  is our beaches. And I think we have. to be honest, hands down, the best

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beaches.  I mean, listen, we can argue by the jala fries, but I think we can put our name

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down on the beaches. Yes, yes.  We have not allowed so much of it to be as polluted as

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I've heard on others, right? Because in all defense, I have not been to Dakar and Gambia

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yet to see their beaches, but I have been to Accra and I've seen their beach. And so far,

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Sierra Leone, hands down. And I've heard from other people too.  Yes,  yes,  it's hands down.

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It's beautiful. And it's more like a cove, right? Because Sierra Leone, we are like in a dip

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of the horn, right? So you have Sierra Leone this way and we're inside. So yes, it's Atlantic,

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but we are like in the cove  area of the Atlantic. So  we're not just like... Senegal was just

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open Atlantic. We're more a little bit inside that cove, which gives us, I think, breathtaking

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types of water.  So, yeah, I think we have the best beaches in West Africa. I'm going

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to stand on that.  Nice.  Maybe the next guest might prove me wrong, but  I stand on that

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one. I do.  I love how there's all this like intra African competition. Oh, it's heavy.

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It's so heavy and it's still there and it's fun to be really honest. It's kind of like

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and we're so small and you know what? I always make fun of Nigerian people. I'm like, listen,

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you guys are just louder because you're a bigger country and you just take up so much space.

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Right. But really, I think at the end, we're all really celebrating all very similar things.

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In the end, we all say, oh, this is how I'm Nigerian. It's really distinct.  They're very

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distinct cultural differences, but the umbrella is really very similar. And I think it takes

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someone who has moved out and lived other places to come and say, oh my gosh, this is similar

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to Senegal, and this is similar to Gambia, and Liberia, and Sierra Leone. West Africa really

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has.  think that's my safe space in the world, is West Africa, as an Australian. I love a

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part of the world and I think it's one of the most beautiful parts of the world. I love the

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people, the culture, the food. Yeah. Cool. It's awesome. What a nice way to end. Thank you

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so much, Zajima, for being here. is such a wonderful, wide-ranging conversation. I just enjoyed it.

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I really enjoyed it. And I wanted to thank you guys for that.